Malcz dish

[silvercollector99]

I am posting this in the Russian forum. I know that Poland was under Russian jurisdiction in the past. I have a dish I believe made by Karol Malcz in Warsaw. I would like to have opinions as to authenticity. It is badly tarnished but well crafted. The dimensions are 9.5 cm length, 7 cm width, 4 cm height. It weighs 81 grams. My concern is that it does not identify the assayer nor the year.





All opinions are welcome.
Thank you,
Silvercollector99

[Zolotnik]

Hi silvercollector99 -

I am afraid that your salt dish (that is how the sellers name this vessel) is one of the many fakes. Real Polish silver under Russian rules is differently marked (acc. to Russian law).

Here 2 photos of correct markings:





Here the photos of an other fake, please compare:





Regards
Zolotnik

[silvercollector99]

Thank you Zolotnik. I know very little about Polish silver. Luckily I did not pay much for this dish.

[Qrt.S]

Yes Zolotniki is right, it is a spurious object. Actually, there is a simple rule regarding Poland. Poland more or less ceased to exist as from 1772 to 1918. It was split three times 1772, 1793 and 1795 between Russia, Prussia and Astro-Hungaria. Each country applied their own marking system on silver and gold on their "Polish" territory. The Russian territory must carry Russian marks etc.. The marks showed are not Russia but pure imaginary ones trying to symbolize this non-existing "Poland". Summa summarum, there are non Polish marks between 1772(95)-1918. All objects from that period carrying "Polish" marks are therefore more than dubious.

[Dad]

Hi, All. I glad to see you again)))

I won't be such categorical. The mark "Malcz", "anchor" and thinness mark are pleasant to me. The eagle in a circle can be city mark of Warsaw assay office. Such order of marks was used.
About 1850-1860 of 19 century.
It would be desirable to hear opinions of the Blackstone and Stantheman.

Best, Best Regards. Dad.

[Qrt.S]

Well Dad, aren't you making unverified claims now? As I said, no "Poland" 1850-60 but Russia with Russian strict marking rules as you very well know. These marks are not legal Russian marks. I would appreciate from you a better explanation of the use of exceptional marks in Russian territory. I'm not aware of such exceptions, but if you say so, please verify.

[silvercollector99]

Reply to Dad,

Your comments led me to do more research with the Malcz dish. My original post asked about Poland while under Russian jurisdiction. Could this dish have been made when Poland was not under Russian control? Two comments came to my attention. The first is from Paul Paulson, author of Guide to Russian Silver Hallmarks. On page XXXIV he writes:
Warsaw: Since the eastern part of Poland belonged at times to the Russian Empire, we found it imperative to list some of the important silversmiths working in Warsaw:

Twelve, sometimes 13 Polish silver standard was used. We also find 84 standard, the assayers mark, the Russian doubleheaded eagle, and the makers mark on many silver articles made in the 19th century.

Malcz is listed as 1847-1852 along with 80+ other silversmiths.


Another comment from this forum, Jan 16 2005 by admin.
Hi jackk,
We will include Warsaw marks that date to the period 1852 - 1915, when marking there was overseen by the Russian Imperial assay office.
Would be great if you could contribute some.
Thanks, Tom

Malcz started his shop in Warsaw prior to the Russian Imperial assay office in 1852. His shop is listed from 1827-1864. Reference Halina Likeyko #39.

How did Paulson identify 12 or 13 different Polish standards? Unfortunately, he did not list all of the different standards. I also wonder how Tom the administrator lists 1852-1915 as Poland being overseen by the Russian Imperial assay office. Is this documented somewhere? I accept that the dish was not made during Russian jurisdiction. I am still unsure if it could have been made between 1827-1852. Any thoughts or comments are welcome.
Thank you.

[Zolotnik]

Hi -
I do not understand why you do not accept the history and the facts. Malcz started his workshop in 1828 (!) not in 1852 (!) and gave the leadership of his shop to August Theodor Werner 1864 (!). He died 1867. All this authors copy from copys and do not proof the facts. According to the political tohuwabohu some people have lost the oversight and write some phantastic storys. I enclose a concept I once wrote for one of my books - sorry it is in German - but you can use Google translator :-)....If you really want to know who worked when and under which rule in Poland - let me know - I have all the facts and real, authentic objects with real and authentic marks in my collection. This is real much work - but not worth for a ridiculous fake with stupid marks. Maybe you try to find out what sort of silver Malcz made and than compare what you have. Sorry for the little sharp tone - but I am fed up with querys about obvious fakes and the lack of a historic background. What do you need more to understand what you have? Next time it might be better to ask all your questions before you buy something!



Kind regards
Zolotnik

[Zolotnik]

Hi -
forgot to mention:

When your Mr. Paul Paulson writes from: "Twelve, sometimes 13 Polish silver standard was used. We also find 84 standard, the assayers mark, the Russian doubleheaded eagle, and the makers mark on many silver articles made in the 19th century." Than he wanted to say (maybe he did not know that...) that Poland used the silver standard of 12 loth (löthig) or 13 loth (löthig).

I enclose a little time table when what was how marked. By the way - if your object was made while Poland existed as souv. State - I am missing the obligatory mermaid with the sword. Fakers do not know everything or do not want to know everything - they trust in the naivety of their customers!



Please read and look at your object...

Kind regards
Zolotnik

[Zolotnik]

Hi -
some silver from Malcz (quality!):













Regards
Zolotnik

[zilverik]

Hi,

I can't image because this deep plate is of good quality, but is it could be a fake. I bought it long ago at Christie's or Sotheby's Amsterdam.

viewtopic.php?f=60&t=25475

Regards,

Zilverik

[zilverik]

Hi all,

View for the answers:
viewtopic.php?f=60&t=25475

Regards,

Zilverik