unknown russian city mark?

[Silbersammler]

Hello,
I can`t find this city mark, can anybody help please?


Thanks :-)

[Qrt.S]

It is Riga in Latvia but do you know what kind of mark it is?

[Silbersammler]

Hi Qrt.S,
thanks for your help.

Here is a pic of the hole item


My wife had bought nearly the identical caraffe with german hallmarks (Bruckmann, If I remember) (only the top is different). That irritates me.

Kind regards
Steffen

[Zolotnik]

Hi Silbersammler -

Riga was the intersection for German exports to Russia and the Baltic States, mostly unmarked with German marks - but always 800/1000 silver content. The letters next to the Russian import mark, which express that the silver content does not eqal the normal Russian ( 875/1000) standart, is normaly the distributor. I think I can read something like DRGM = Deutsches Reichs Gebrauchmuster - but I am not sure. These articles were similar to the Historism merchandise from Hanau - but without the phantasy marks and fabricated by several factories in Germany just for the export.

Regards

Zolotnik

[Silbersammler]

Hi Zolotnik,
very interesting. If I understood you correctly, these pieces were produced in Germany without stamps. Was this permitted? I thought, starting from 1888 had everything in germany to be marked with the silver content.
And the next question: where the 84 was marked, in Riga? Because this mark is wrong, if it is no 875 but 800er silver.
Thanks and kind regards
Steffen

[Qrt.S]

No, you have partly misunderstood, wait a while and I will explain it.

[Qrt.S]

Here you have it.

As Zolotnik mention Riga was alongside with St Petersburg the biggest import harbor in Imperial Russia. This import mark was implemented in 1882 and used until 1899. The ПТ mark stands for ПРНВОЗИЫХ ТОВАРОВ meaning imported goods. It does not express any fineness whatsoever! . It was forbidden by law to import silver objects in lover fineness than 84 zolotnik (875/1000) to Russia. It is just to read the regulations :-)))))

The mark Zolotnik mix with is НП НЕ СООТВЕТСТВУЕТ ПРОБЕ meaning about "Not adequate quality" i.e too low fineness (below 875)

ПТ is not either an unidentified maker's mark as I have seen it mentioned. The customs brought the object to the assaying office and they tested it and marked it accordingly but only if it was made in legal silver purity, otherwise it was confiscated and destroyed.

One more thing, yes, dubious persons imported unmarked silver objects to Russia and had them legally "marked" with Russian marks. Then they sold them with huge profits. This was one of the reasons why an import mark was implemented. This is also to be read in the respective regulations.
Nowadays it is sometimes very difficult to separate an imported unmarked but with Russian marks marked object from an object made in Russia. One alarming thing is the lack of a maker's mark but still carrying an assayer's mark. Unfortunately it is not always that easy.

[Silbersammler]

Hi Qrt.S,
the next lesson to learn for me, I bought this item some years ago as "russian" (not cheap :-))

OK, let me see if I have understood: the caraffe was produced in germany, maybe by Bruckmann. Because it was made for export, it has no german hallmarks. I did not know that items for export were released from the obligation of german law of 1888 to mark the purity.
Then it was exported to riga and there marked with ПТ mark and 84 and was now legal to be sold. Correct?
Very interesting here, I should spent more time to read and post here :-)
Thanks a lot for your kind help, also to zolotnik
Kind regards
Steffen

[Dad]

I see to the right of Russian mark of import - "875М". What countries marked such punch of silver fineness?

[Qrt.S]

Evening Steffen,

Your assumption is correct but I don't know where the carafe was made. What also is possible that it was ordered from Russia from the manufacturing and exporting company and especially made without any marks in order to be imported, marked and sold legally in Russia. That the exporting country would have been Germany is most likely correct. Anyway, the fineness cannot be below 875. The 875M mark might indicate the purity, I don't know. if it were below 875, it would have been an illegal import, which is also not all excluded.

[Qrt.S]

Yes Dad, that is a good question. The answer is; no country does as far as I know. But the explanation might be that the exporting company was located in Germany and there 875/1000 is not a standard purity. If the object was made on a special order for export to Russia only the mark 875M was punched in order to show the Russian customs and assay office that it was made in legal Russian purity 84 zolotnik. However, this is purely my private speculation, I really don't know.

[Dad]

I see to the right of Russian mark of import - "875М". What countries marked such punch of silver fineness?

In addition : Russian mark for the import items: " 84 + town mark (customs) + ПТ (привозной товар).
If I am right and to the right of the russian import mark we read "875М" this subject is made exclusively for the Russian market.

Best Reg..

[Silbersammler]

Dear Qrt.S,
your thoughs are profound knowledge and logical.
Here is a picture of the similar german carafe. I was very much surprised as my wife came back from an ancient market few time ago with nearly the same carafe as my "russian carafe".



Kind regards
Steffen

[Silbersammler]

the pic was cut, next trying

[Zolotnik]

Hi all -

Qrt.S is right with the import mark - I switched it with the mark expressing that the silver content does not equal the Russian standart. That is the mark one expects. Sorry for that.

I repeat: Riga was the main channel for imported silver as well as for Russia but mostly for the Baltic states. Orders went from Riga to Germany, delivering from Germany to Riga. From there the goods were sold and marked by distributors to the Baltic states or to Russia. There are many similar objects known - but they are stamped differently! Normaly these objects came unmarked and in 800/1000 silver and were later marked by the contributor in Riga. What I thougt was the DRGM stamp could read as 875 M - but this combination with the Riga stamp is very dubious because the German factorys did not mark their export silver to Riga. Your piece is no Russian piece, it is German, sold in Riga to some non Russian person (see the Latin donation text ..24.Decbr 1897) in the Baltic states.

I would test the silver content - if it is 800 - all marks are fakes. If it tests 875 we learned something new about the 875M stamp and everything is right.

Regards
Zolotnik

[Silbersammler]

Hi Zolotnik,
thanks for your thoughts, your idea to test the silver content is very good, but: it is not so easy. You should have a mass spectrometer.
The testing using nitric acid and dichromat and judge about the intensity of the red colour is IMHO not suitable to differentiate between the contents of 800 and 875. Cutting a piece of silver, dissolve in nitric acid and titrate with chloride is a possible way but the object would be damaged ....... how do you test the content of your items?

But I don`t believe that all marks are fakes. When faking an object, the faker will increase the value. IMHO the value with a import mark of riga is not higher than with the german marks. A faker would have jused russian marks, or not?
Ok, and the carafe is old, I`m sure the donation text of 1897 is no fake, that also speaks against it that all marks are faked.

Kind regards from germany
Steffen

[Qrt.S]

Morning,

Zolotnik's suggestion of testing the fineness is a interesting but, as you mention Steffen, unfortunately difficult to accomplish. However, please let me remind you that the German mark 800 (as all other purity marks too) does never mean maximum silver purity but minimum. That means it can be higher, even 875. The German standards were/are 800, 835, 900 and 925. As you see there is no German 875 fineness and 900 can not be punched for obvious reasons. Following that logic it would explain this 875M "special Russian export mark (?)" for reasons already mentioned.

I think the purity is 875 and I have no doubts about you carafe's authenticity but it is definitely not Russian made.

By the way, this 875M mark is new to me too. But Steffen, please give the carafe some polish. Silver is supposed to shine the like full moon in August (except for the in the factory blackened parts).

Have a nice day all of you
Qrt.S

PS Steffen, have you started to learn the imperial Russian marking system? It would be important and not to mention interesting when collecting Russian silver or you will only get rid of your money easily and for nothing.

[Silbersammler]

@ Qrt.S
Concerning polisch: It is sad, but my whole collection is packed in foil and stored in cardboards. I have on the one hand much too many pieces to set up around and it have also safety reasons, the silver is in a special safe deposit area.

Yes, I started to learn the imperial Russian marking system, slowly but with progress. And I stopped buying russian items after the advices of you and postnikow.
I also began to sort the collection and separeted all items with russian hallmarks. Some of those items where I have open questions I will present in this forum (the carafe was the start) and so learning more. You remember the big box of cloisonne we discussed last summer? I promised to make new photos of the remaining marks as well as from a homogenous vase. Unfortunately it lasted for a very long time, but I had not forgotten, the photos are made and presented soon. It would be very wellcome if even this mystery can be still solved :-)
Kind regards
Steffen

[Zolotnik]

Hi Silbersammler -

testing silver is not too complicated: scratch some silver from the inner surface (fitting) to the crystall and you have what you need without destroying anything. I seldom have to test my silver - I know what I am looking for and when I have doubts - I do not buy. I do not collect unmarked or dubious silver....

When I write about marks I do not speak from inscriptions or donation textes - I speak from maker´s - distributor´s - import-export - assay - silver content marks!

But I don`t believe that all marks are fakes. When faking an object, the faker will increase the value. IMHO the value with a import mark of riga is not higher than with the german marks. A faker would have jused russian marks, or not?
Ok, and the carafe is old, I`m sure the donation text of 1897 is no fake, that also speaks against it that all marks are faked.

In the past all kinds of these "Historism"- objects, for which exist no big market (exept prominent maker´s marks like Bruckmann etc. - you collect the name - not the object!) in the antique business, were "russificated" to get a better price. The import mark of Riga is a Russian mark! (see history: Baltic States and Russia). More value for the collector....
Have a look at the different auction houses and you will see this objects with Russian phantasy marks for phantasy prices.

What makes me nervous is this unprofessional struck 875 M mark I never have seen before. In Germany exist old silver with M marks (800 M, 900 M but no 875 M!)

On your piece are several important marks missing - why - that is the question.

If it is a "German" piece - the correct German marks (maker, crown, halfmoon, silvercontent) are missing
If it is a "German - Latvia" exported piece - the correct Latvian marks (import mark, distributor) are missing
If it is a "German - via Latvia/Riga - Russia exported piece - the correct Russian marks (import mark) are punched but why the 875M mark? Double proof??? And why a German donation text?

Now someone give the right answers.

Regards
Zolotnik

[Silbersammler]

Hi Zolotnik,
thanks for your thoughts, many good questions, but I`m sorry, I have no answers.
I also never had seen the mark 875 M.

Maybe somebody had new idees?

Yes to buy something about which one does not understand anything, is an error. I unfortunately committed this error fequently in the past. Still learning every day to make things better :-)

Kind regards
Steffen