Russian spoon from Moscow 1826

[asti]

Hi to all,
Maybe all the opinions on this topic are correct somehow…

Zolotnik, anytime I can contribute for a spoon tread.

Ringo, more or less hanoverian, I agree with you, I’ve seen a lot of time this pattern on spoons made especially in Germany on the late 18 century and beginning of 19.

Dad, They are not sisters. More cousins, because my eyes see your spoon with Austro-Hungarian or France influence... 

Have a nice day,
Cristian

[Zolotnik]

Hi Dad -

can you please show the backside of the spoon? That is what we have problems with! Maybe it is a pattern (European) not many have seen until now? Isn´t it funny that this spoons show up suddenly? With "identic" marks? Same year...
I asked all my collector friends - nobody know or has one of this spoons....

I don't like picture on the Zolotnik's snuffbox any more. Here it is a typical European picture, nothing Russian theme.)))

I do not understand what you want to say - I posted it to show the marks. If it is not your taste - sorry.

Regards
Zolotnik

[Dad]

Hi, Zolotnik.

Unfortunately, I have no other photos. I ask to notice that the spoon is old and with the "eaten" edge.

My taste is normal. I wanted to tell that on a snuffbox scenes from the West European life, instead of Russian are represented. But it doesn't disturb you, isn't it? As well with a spoon.)))

Best Reg..

[Zolotnik]

Hi Dad -

as you know the official language at court in St. Petersburg was French! And most of the dayly used items were European influenced. And the etiquette was total french too, with sheperd scenes in the parks etc.This was one side of Russia - I prefer the other - even today!!

It is a pitty that you have no other photo, one of the backside of the spoon. I thought the photos you post are all your photos :-) - but as an expert you need no originals - only copys from copys! That makes everything much more complikated - the spoon you showed is completely different from the spoon we speak about! Different pattern, slim fiddle, heavy used on tin plates :-)!

Regards
Zolotnik

[Dad]

Hi Dad -

as you know the official language at court in St. Petersburg was French!

It is a pitty that you have no other photo, one of the backside of the spoon. I thought the photos you post are all your photos :-) - but as an expert you need no originals - only copys from copys! That makes everything much more complikated - the spoon you showed is completely different from the spoon we speak about! Different pattern, slim fiddle, heavy used on tin plates :-)!

Respected Postnikov (Zolotnik). The google translator couldn't translate a word "pitty" . Repeat please. But if this word offends me it is not necessary to do.

P.S. Russian was an official language of an imperial court yard. But each formed nobleman knew the French language.

[Zolotnik]

Hi Dad -

The google translator couldn't translate a word "pitty" .

My English is not much better than yours, sorry. "pitty" = regretable, sad, unfortunate = сожалению, трагиеский, жалко

Regards
Zolotnik

[R ingo]

Hello asti,
concerning to your statement, that the pattern is "more or less hanoverian"; it is wrong. But this is unimportant .
More interesting then the widely-used style of the stem is the form of the bowl. You have wrote, the the spoon was made in western Europe, but I have never seen this extreme heart-shaped style of the bowl there.
The only example of a similar bowl I found, was on a russian spoon also from Moskow.

Kind regards,
Ringo

[asti]

Hi Ringo,
For me your spoon was and will remain a Western European pattern even having the Russian markings. I don’t know why have this form, but it’s not a Russian classic. About the difference of Russian fiddle and your spoon for me is evident… anyway I’m glad because this is the first spoon which I see with this markings.

About the bowl extreme heart shape style I found some spoons “more or less” made in opposite parts of Europe to Russia. :-)


And the surprise, first two are made in Spain on the middle of 18th century, and the next is Austro Hungarian on beginning of 19th, and the third I think is from North-Western Europe, beginning of 19. I know, you will say: are not identical with mine…


Regards,
Asti

[R ingo]

Hello Asti,

thank you for the nice photos.
It is unimportant in this discussion, but I would be very surprised, when the two spanish spoons are really from the middle of the 18th century.

Kind regards,
Ringo

[asti]

Hi Ringo,

“By 1760-1770, the Hanoverian pattern underwent two important changes. The ends of the spoon stems turned down instead of up and so for the first time in England the table service was no longer laid in the French manner and spoons were placed on the table open bowl uppermost… The pattern which developed from these changes is now called Old English. There were a number of very elegant variants to this pattern in the last forty years of the eighteenth century but the plain Old English pattern as well as the plain Fiddle pattern of the early nineteenth century form the basis of all other flatware patterns up to the present day… The Fiddle pattern originated in France, where it was the most popular pattern of the mid eighteenth century. However, in Britain the majority of Fiddle pattern dates from after 1800. With the continued growth of affluence and the swing towards the heavier classicism of the Regency, the Fiddle pattern and its derivatives rapidly replaced the lighter forms of the Old English. The 1820s saw the introduction of a large variety of stamped patterns, based on the Fiddle pattern, with heavy ornament such as the King’s pattern and many others.” The source is hire: [url]http://www.antique-silver.com/ref/tware1.htm
[/url]
If google-it a little, you will understand better. Your pattern is from the Old English, a evolution of Hanoverian ho passed in Europe in the form like Spanish spoons from 1759 posted earlier. I asking you again, Its more or less Hanoverian like in my statement?

Regards,
Asti

[asti]

Hi Ringo, you are welcome.

The spoons hallmark:

http://www.munozarce.com/contrastes/localidad/id34.htm

Regards,
Asti

[R ingo]

Hello Asti,
there is no reason to google a little. The evolution of european spoons is quite clear and well known; and the development of the pattern from my spoon I posted here to you before (Thu May 05, 2011 6:57 pm).
I only wonder, that you think, your spanish spoons are from the 18th century.

I think, it is better to finish the disput now.

Regards,
Ringo

[asti]

Hi Ringo,

Yes, it is better to end this controversy now because we have different views.

However, until a few days ago, I was very suspicious about your discoveries on the Russian spoon patterns, until by chance I came across this:






Sorry for phone photo quality but I've founder in a bin ready to be melted down. The only marking on them appears to be an import one ... Certainly this model was very popular in the Balkans at the end of the 19th century and beginning of 20th, and perhaps this is their source. Why Russia import something like this? They consider them a exotic pattern? We may never know, but I left them to their melting way, and maybe we all will share them in our future phone or computer components made by a Japanese brand, with pieces from China and assembled in Taiwan ... :-)

Kind regards,
Asti