Dutck mark ?
Dutck mark ?
I have a Dutch, I think 18th century, toy dish, and a two pronged fork which have the same hallmark ( a rather unclear tree). Can anyone identify it? The miniature dish has a Dutch hatchet mark stamped to it, and the small fork has some additional tiny marks that I cannot identify. It is decorated in the Chinese style, and has an English looking crest engraved to it. Any help would be greatly appeciated. Thanks . John
Re: Dutck mark ?
Hi John,
Your objects are lacking any valid Dutch Guild marks /Assay marks or City date letters.
The Hatchet you mentioned: Duty mark for old silver objects of national origin returned to the trade. In accordance with several resolutions with further clarifications, this mark was intended for objects with the hallmarks of the ancient Netherlands silversmiths’ companies ….The use of this mark was abolished in 1927 for two reasons:1st . The lack of knowledge of the old marks has caused this mark to be sometimes struck on old foreign objects. 2nd. this mark had often been counterfeited and used to give objects an antique aura. The difference with the older French ‘hatchet’ mark: The French mark was struck tax free on objects with valid hallmarks. Your unclear tree mark has some similarities with Old Dutch maker’s mark with a tree in it, however I have not find a perfect match.
NB at the turn of the 19th century many silver items with pseudo old marks have been made to satisfy a huge demand for Old Dutch silver.
Conclusion we might have our doubts about the origin of your objects.
Regards,
Oel
Your objects are lacking any valid Dutch Guild marks /Assay marks or City date letters.
The Hatchet you mentioned: Duty mark for old silver objects of national origin returned to the trade. In accordance with several resolutions with further clarifications, this mark was intended for objects with the hallmarks of the ancient Netherlands silversmiths’ companies ….The use of this mark was abolished in 1927 for two reasons:1st . The lack of knowledge of the old marks has caused this mark to be sometimes struck on old foreign objects. 2nd. this mark had often been counterfeited and used to give objects an antique aura. The difference with the older French ‘hatchet’ mark: The French mark was struck tax free on objects with valid hallmarks. Your unclear tree mark has some similarities with Old Dutch maker’s mark with a tree in it, however I have not find a perfect match.
NB at the turn of the 19th century many silver items with pseudo old marks have been made to satisfy a huge demand for Old Dutch silver.
Conclusion we might have our doubts about the origin of your objects.
Regards,
Oel
Re: Dutck mark ?
Hi OEL - many thanks for passing on your knowledge. It is good to now understand the 'hatchet' mark. I agree completely with your comment on psuedo Dutch marks. I have had many, mainly on spoons over the years! I was just amazed to find this mark on two seperate items completely independant of each other. Kind regards John
Re: Dutck mark ?
Hi Joho,
I am not convinced that your objects have speudo marks. The tree could be Pieter van Somerwil I Amsterdam 1706-1753.
See 'Al ´s werelds goed, is poppegoed. page 76. A test of the silvercontent might help.
Regards,
Zilverik
I am not convinced that your objects have speudo marks. The tree could be Pieter van Somerwil I Amsterdam 1706-1753.
See 'Al ´s werelds goed, is poppegoed. page 76. A test of the silvercontent might help.
Regards,
Zilverik
Re: Dutck mark ?
Hi Zilverik,
What I wrote:the unclear tree mark has some similarities with Old Dutch maker’s mark with a tree in it, however I have not find a perfect match. What you wrote :I am not convinced that your objects have speudo marks. The tree could be Pieter van Somerwil I Amsterdam 1706-1753. Nice to know you are not convinced but be more helpful and show us the master mark of Pieter van Somerwil so we have something to compare and perhaps discuss.
Regards,
Oel
What I wrote:the unclear tree mark has some similarities with Old Dutch maker’s mark with a tree in it, however I have not find a perfect match. What you wrote :I am not convinced that your objects have speudo marks. The tree could be Pieter van Somerwil I Amsterdam 1706-1753. Nice to know you are not convinced but be more helpful and show us the master mark of Pieter van Somerwil so we have something to compare and perhaps discuss.
Regards,
Oel
Re: Dutck mark ?
Hi Oel and Joho,
Oel, you are right.
Hereby the photo of the page with the marks of Pieter van Somerwil I. There could be a match.
Regards,
Zilverik
Oel, you are right.
Hereby the photo of the page with the marks of Pieter van Somerwil I. There could be a match.
Regards,
Zilverik
Re: Dutck mark ?
Hello Zilverik,
Thank you very much. The Tree like mark on Joho’s items to me do not match the mark of Pieter van Somerwil I and the absent of genuine Guild marks makes it to me a little spurious, however a beauty of a conversation piece.
Cheers,
Oel
Thank you very much. The Tree like mark on Joho’s items to me do not match the mark of Pieter van Somerwil I and the absent of genuine Guild marks makes it to me a little spurious, however a beauty of a conversation piece.
Cheers,
Oel
Re: Dutck mark ?
Hi Oel and Zilverik - I have just come across another miniature item with the same mark !! On eBay this time. A small chest. In addition to the tree mark there were a couple of other marks, one of which I think is date letter for 1807. Here are some pictures off eBay. Thanks for all your comments so far. Regards John
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Re: Dutck mark ?
Hi John,
Looking at the little ‘silver’ couch or chest, the quality of the work does not impress me. Let us discuss the marks which are clearly visible at the photos. If we look at the square cartouche with the letter D inside, I believe we are not looking at the Dutch date letter A, used 1807+1808. The ‘oval’ cartouche, with 10 inside, has not the right form to be the Kingdom of Holland standard mark,being a more rectangle cartouche with 10 inside, for 10 Penningen silver (833 fineness). Those standard marks are always struck in combination with the Office/City assay mark. At your photos the Office mark is missing or not shown. The third mark tries to pretend to look like the small import and duty mark Paris & Dept, used 1809-1814. We could ask our self the question; why are the marks punched on such an eye catching place? Last but not least; Dutch maker’s mark with a tree, I know of, were used prior 1805 but….. May be price your self lucky your bid was not high enough?
Regards,
Oel
Looking at the little ‘silver’ couch or chest, the quality of the work does not impress me. Let us discuss the marks which are clearly visible at the photos. If we look at the square cartouche with the letter D inside, I believe we are not looking at the Dutch date letter A, used 1807+1808. The ‘oval’ cartouche, with 10 inside, has not the right form to be the Kingdom of Holland standard mark,being a more rectangle cartouche with 10 inside, for 10 Penningen silver (833 fineness). Those standard marks are always struck in combination with the Office/City assay mark. At your photos the Office mark is missing or not shown. The third mark tries to pretend to look like the small import and duty mark Paris & Dept, used 1809-1814. We could ask our self the question; why are the marks punched on such an eye catching place? Last but not least; Dutch maker’s mark with a tree, I know of, were used prior 1805 but….. May be price your self lucky your bid was not high enough?
Regards,
Oel
Re: Dutck mark ?
Dutch miniature silver & toys and their marks.
The history of the Dutch hallmark is complex because in fact silversmiths and assayers not always adhered to the rules regarding what should be marked on the finished pieces of silver. Dutch miniature doll house silver became very popular in the latter half of the 18th century, during the silver Guild rules.
Today’s collector of miniature silver of the 18th century would be delighted to find a piece with all the right four hallmarks being; genuine date letter, genuine city guild silver mark, lion rampant silver guarantee mark and a genuine known maker’s mark. However it is possible to overlook a silver miniature made by a famous silversmith of the 18th century because he has not stamped it with his mark, or because he or the city guild didn’t comply with the changes of legislation on silver marking, and continued mixing the old mark of a personal symbol, like a rabbit, a deer or a tree, after law change to use a mark with his initials and to abandon the use of guild marks.
Unfortunately also many silversmiths only left the town mark, and there were those that left nothing. Original miniatures of the 18th century are sought after and highly expensive. In the 19th century, well after the guild rules were demolished, Dutch silversmiths made (quality) miniature silver and marked it with pseudo guild marks with or without their own maker’s mark and or other legal markings.
Today, because of the high prices paid for old miniature silver & toys, forgeries are made. You can perhaps compare it with the mass fake Imperial Russian silver pieces offered at various auction outlets.
Ok if we know all the facts what should we do? We could check for quality, find out all about its provenance, and check the markings, consult reference books or even consult a known expert. If there are any doubts or red herrings do not buy unless you are willing to loose most of your money or like to gamble on a real McCoy. Please remember opinion forums and experts opinions are like an ass, everyone has one.
Regards,
Oel
The history of the Dutch hallmark is complex because in fact silversmiths and assayers not always adhered to the rules regarding what should be marked on the finished pieces of silver. Dutch miniature doll house silver became very popular in the latter half of the 18th century, during the silver Guild rules.
Today’s collector of miniature silver of the 18th century would be delighted to find a piece with all the right four hallmarks being; genuine date letter, genuine city guild silver mark, lion rampant silver guarantee mark and a genuine known maker’s mark. However it is possible to overlook a silver miniature made by a famous silversmith of the 18th century because he has not stamped it with his mark, or because he or the city guild didn’t comply with the changes of legislation on silver marking, and continued mixing the old mark of a personal symbol, like a rabbit, a deer or a tree, after law change to use a mark with his initials and to abandon the use of guild marks.
Unfortunately also many silversmiths only left the town mark, and there were those that left nothing. Original miniatures of the 18th century are sought after and highly expensive. In the 19th century, well after the guild rules were demolished, Dutch silversmiths made (quality) miniature silver and marked it with pseudo guild marks with or without their own maker’s mark and or other legal markings.
Today, because of the high prices paid for old miniature silver & toys, forgeries are made. You can perhaps compare it with the mass fake Imperial Russian silver pieces offered at various auction outlets.
Ok if we know all the facts what should we do? We could check for quality, find out all about its provenance, and check the markings, consult reference books or even consult a known expert. If there are any doubts or red herrings do not buy unless you are willing to loose most of your money or like to gamble on a real McCoy. Please remember opinion forums and experts opinions are like an ass, everyone has one.
Regards,
Oel
Re: Dutck mark ?
Dutch miniature silver & toys and their marks.
The history of the Dutch hallmark is complex because in fact silversmiths and assayers not always adhered to the rules regarding what should be marked on the finished pieces of silver. Dutch miniature doll house silver became very popular in the latter half of the 18th century, during the silver Guild rules.
Today’s collector of miniature silver of the 18th century would be delighted to find a piece with all the right four hallmarks being; genuine date letter, genuine city guild silver mark, lion rampant silver guarantee mark and a genuine maker’s mark. However it is possible to overlook a silver miniature made by a famous silversmith of the 18th century because he has not stamped it with his mark, or because he or the city guild didn’t comply with the changes of legislation on silver marking, and continued mixing the old mark of a personal symbol, like a rabbit, a deer or a tree, after law change to use a mark with his initials and to abandon the use of guild marks.
Unfortunately also many silversmiths only left the town mark, and there were those that left nothing due to the little size and/or fragility of the miniature. Original miniatures of the 18th century are sought after and highly expensive. In the 19th century, well after the guild rules were demolished, Dutch silversmiths made (quality) miniature silver and marked it with pseudo guild marks with or without their own maker’s mark and or other legal markings.
Today, because of the high prices paid for old miniature silver & toys, forgeries are made. You can perhaps compare it with the mass fake Imperial Russian silver pieces offered at various auction outlets.
Ok if we know all the facts what should we do? We could check for quality, find out all about its provenance, and check the markings, consult reference books or even consult a known expert. If there are any doubts or red herrings do not buy unless you are willing to loose most of your money or like to gamble on a real McCoy. Please remember opinion forums and experts opinions are like an ass, everyone has one.
Regards,
Oel
The history of the Dutch hallmark is complex because in fact silversmiths and assayers not always adhered to the rules regarding what should be marked on the finished pieces of silver. Dutch miniature doll house silver became very popular in the latter half of the 18th century, during the silver Guild rules.
Today’s collector of miniature silver of the 18th century would be delighted to find a piece with all the right four hallmarks being; genuine date letter, genuine city guild silver mark, lion rampant silver guarantee mark and a genuine maker’s mark. However it is possible to overlook a silver miniature made by a famous silversmith of the 18th century because he has not stamped it with his mark, or because he or the city guild didn’t comply with the changes of legislation on silver marking, and continued mixing the old mark of a personal symbol, like a rabbit, a deer or a tree, after law change to use a mark with his initials and to abandon the use of guild marks.
Unfortunately also many silversmiths only left the town mark, and there were those that left nothing due to the little size and/or fragility of the miniature. Original miniatures of the 18th century are sought after and highly expensive. In the 19th century, well after the guild rules were demolished, Dutch silversmiths made (quality) miniature silver and marked it with pseudo guild marks with or without their own maker’s mark and or other legal markings.
Today, because of the high prices paid for old miniature silver & toys, forgeries are made. You can perhaps compare it with the mass fake Imperial Russian silver pieces offered at various auction outlets.
Ok if we know all the facts what should we do? We could check for quality, find out all about its provenance, and check the markings, consult reference books or even consult a known expert. If there are any doubts or red herrings do not buy unless you are willing to loose most of your money or like to gamble on a real McCoy. Please remember opinion forums and experts opinions are like an ass, everyone has one.
Regards,
Oel
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