Russian or French

[rob1989]

I bought a spoon for a few bucks and was trying to identify the hallmark to determine if it was silver. at first I thought it was russian 84 silver but now I'm not sure. The marks are on the inside of the bowl and because there are no other accompanying hallmarks I think it might be silver plated French. Could anyone shed some light and help me identify this spoon?

[Qrt.S]

It is a typical Russian silver spoon in 875/1000. However, I wonder what gives you the impression that your spoon would be French? It has a maker's mark in Cyrillic letters i.e. ПИ (Latin PI). That would be a woman Praskovja Semjonovna Izrailovich active around 1909 in Moscow. She is known for making beakers, cigarette cases, spoon etc. If you clean up the hallmark you will find the Greek letter alpha to the left of the kokoshnik. It is the town cipher for Moscow.

You are not giving any measures but I would say that it is a tea spoon anticipating its length to about 13-14 cm (~5")- If it is bigger about 20 cm (~8") it is a serving spoon.

[Child]

Kindly tell me what greek letter reads below the had, alfa or delta? Or may be another?

[rob1989]

Thank you for the very detailed information. I am trying to do more research and be familiar with silver marks. The reason I was thinking it was french was because i read a cautionary note while doing research that said..

The "84" French Silverplate mark is often mistaken for a russian silver mark. There are notable differences between the marks on French plated pieces and russian silver marks. Though an "84" ( But never with an a additional "g" or "gr") may appear on russian silver pieces, there is always more than one additional mark on silver pieces. In fact, there should also be a makers mark, a town mark, a wardens mark and possibly a double headed eagle as mark of court-supplier. All these marks are usually punched on the back of the handle, sometimes -not too often- on the back of the bowl of a spoon, but never as the french do, on the inside of the bowl.

The statement about the marks never being placed inside the bowl threw me off and that was what mainly prompted this question. I will try to clean up the mark and see if I can identify a greek alpha mark.

Additional information, the spoon weighs 37.5 Grams and is 17cm in length.

[Qrt.S]

Sorry I made a mistake the Greek letter should be delta not alpha. Alpha is St Petersburg's cipher.

[Zolotnik]

The real maker of the spoon is: Ivanova Pelageja Efimovna, working 1895-1900 in Moscow - wellknown for her spoons.

[Qrt.S]

Wrong dear Zolotnik, you are jumping to hasty conclusions again. Kindly pay some attention to the hallmark. It was in use as from 1908-1927 and Ivanova was working only to 1900. Yes, she was known for her spoon but this is not hers. If and I say IF it would be Ivanova the hallmark would look like this:
I still stick to my suggestion.

[Zolotnik]

....you are jumping to hasty conclusions again.

Please stop all personal attacks of this kind! Try to be serious and friendly...........

The Russians do not know hallmarks - only the English. The shown punch I can not find in my sources - and I never have seen one in life.

Maybe you heared of "new old stock"?

Please show a mark of the silversmith you named.

[Qrt.S]

"Hallmark" is the correct/official name in English of the mark punched by authorities in any country i.e in this case the Russian so called shovel kokoshnik. If you still clam that it is Ivanova's mark, you are making hasty conclusions. As you stated yourself Ivanova's working period was 1895-1900. At that time the kokoshnik hallmark showed on the spoon was not even invented yet and the hallmark I showed was valid. The kokoshnik hallmark on the spoon appears only as from 1908- and at that time Ivanova was not active anymore. Elementary conclusion.
I'm sorry I don't have a picture of Izrailovich mark; I only know from my sources that she punched ПИ (Latin PI). In addition, I stated that it would be Izrailovich. This means that I'm not absolutely sure because I don't have a better alternative. However, it cannot be Ivanova by any case due to the a fore mentioned reason.

[Qrt.S]

Sorry I forgot to tell about the mark I showed (84AP). It was introduced at the same time as the left looking kokoshnik 1898/99. It was a "double" in the shape of a shovel denoting the assayer and fineness It was punched on articles weighting less than one zolotnik (4,24 grams). But it was also punched on rings, crosses, earrings, pins, charms, buttons etc... there is a list. It is not an often seen mark.

As from 1908 it changed shape to the down looking kokoshink mark with a assay office cipher in a shovel shield as well as the actual hallmark kokoshink turned to look right. The down looking kokoshnik was used alone or together with other hallmarks on precious articles produced in Russia weighted less than 2 zolotniks but also on other other small articles e.g. spoons. There is a whole list of small articles that can bear this mark.

I hope this will satisfy you.