Can you identify a BB maker's mark please?

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Frontfloater
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Can you identify a BB maker's mark please?

Postby Frontfloater » Wed Mar 02, 2011 2:16 pm

Hello, this is my first posting. Can anyone please identify the Russian maker's mark "BB" - I can't find it on any of the silver hallmark websites.

I recently bought this bracelet at an auction. The seller claimed that it was brought out of revolutionary Russia by a salesman. The clasp is stamped with the 2nd Kokoshnik 84 alpha mark for St Petersburg. The clasp and every link is also marked "BB" in an oval cartouche. The cartouche has a small notch in the centre of the lower edge, like the tail of the "Batman" symbol. I'm sorry for my poor photo, but the marks are very small and my camera would not focus any closer.

In my photo, the BB looks more like "EB", but under magnification all the Bs definitely have complete loops - so it appears that they are Cyrillic letters and would be "V V" in western script. I hope my description is clear.

Thank you,
BOB

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Qrt.S
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Re: Can you identify a BB maker's mark please?

Postby Qrt.S » Wed Mar 02, 2011 2:51 pm

What if I told you that practically all enameled work was made in Moscow?

Zolotnik
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Re: Can you identify a BB maker's mark please?

Postby Zolotnik » Wed Mar 02, 2011 2:55 pm

Russian enamel work comes mostly from the Moscow region and bears therefore the Moscow townmark. There are some exeptions, which comes from St. Petersburg. This is one. The workmaster is the wellknown jeweller and enamel artist Boitsov Wasilij Wasiljewitsch.

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Qrt.S
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Re: Can you identify a BB maker's mark please?

Postby Qrt.S » Wed Mar 02, 2011 3:42 pm

Very interesting Zolotnik :-) . In that case the initals are not BB (VV) but ВБ in Latin letters VB. Boitsov was a master of enamel, engraver and jeweller in St Petersburg. He worked with Fabergé 1906-1916. He also had his own workshop on Maloohinskij prospect 42.

Nice done Zolotnik, I did not see the initials good enough from the lousy picture.

Frontfloater
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Re: Can you identify a BB maker's mark please?

Postby Frontfloater » Wed Mar 02, 2011 3:53 pm

Thanks for your replies, but the hallmark is definitely two identical Bs with complete loops when I use a magnifying glass, and NOT a Cyrillic B with a "broken loop". So I am sure it is BB (vey vey) and not VB (vey beh) .

I'm sorry, my keyboard does not type Russian letters

BOB

Qrt.S
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Re: Can you identify a BB maker's mark please?

Postby Qrt.S » Wed Mar 02, 2011 4:02 pm

If that is the case, it is a spurious object. However, if I were you I would try to find a better camera and take some new pictures of the marks. Use a tripod and the camera's macro function. Because if it is ВБ i.e. Vasilij Boitsov you have made a good bargain.

By the way, the Cyrillic alphabet is not in the keyboard but in the system. It is just to activate it and use.

Zolotnik
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Re: Can you identify a BB maker's mark please?

Postby Zolotnik » Wed Mar 02, 2011 5:13 pm

To Frontfloater -

your bracelet is 100% genuine and in perfect condition. The style and the quality points to Boitsov. Very nice and a great find!

(admin edit - see Posting Requirements )

Qrt.S wrote:What if I told you that practically all enameled work was made in Moscow?


This is total wrong. Please read some books about Russian enamel, for example: Русская Змалъ Вторая Половина 19 - 20 Век ISBN 5-7460-0003-5
The enamel centres were (1781 - 1810): St. Petersburg, Rostov the Great, Moscow, Novgorod, Veliky Ustyug and Solvychegodsk. In the 19th century only St. Petersburg and Moscow were able to hold on their leading position. Mid 19th to the begnning of the 20th century the two Russian higher art and industrial institutes - theStroganov college in Moscow and the Baron Schtiglits college in St. Petersburg - trained professional enamelers. Ovtschinnikov and Fabergé set up similar training schools.... etc.

Qrt.S
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Re: Can you identify a BB maker's mark please?

Postby Qrt.S » Thu Mar 03, 2011 2:15 am

OK fine, bad wording in my statement. However, what we see here and on the market is more than often Moscow made. I cannot recall at the moment seeing here any enameled work made elsewhere. In addition, I stated "practically all" and not "all".

Dad
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Re: Can you identify a BB maker's mark please?

Postby Dad » Thu Mar 03, 2011 3:09 am

Hi, All.

Qrt.S the rights. If mark Ð’Ð’, it not Boitsov Vasiliy.
Show us large accurate photos of marks and an enamel detail. On these pictures of anything it is impossible to tell. There can be a modern work.
On each element of a bracelet there should be a state mark (cleanliness of silver or a certificate sign). Show this marking, please.

Frontfloater
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Re: Can you identify a BB maker's mark please?

Postby Frontfloater » Thu Mar 03, 2011 7:51 am

Thank you. Here are some better photos. Each piece of the bracelet has the BB mark and no other : only the clasp has the St Petersburg mark. I hope you can see the notch in the bottom edge of the cartouche.

Two small charms were sold with the bracelet. The egg is also marked 84 and BB - the two Bs are very small, stamped on each side of the gap in the attachment ring. The shoe charm has no 84 mark, and a different maker's mark which is hard to read, beginning with A. I think it may be AL or AP in Cyrillic.

BOB
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Qrt.S
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Re: Can you identify a BB maker's mark please?

Postby Qrt.S » Thu Mar 03, 2011 4:45 pm

Looking again at the marks makes me very skeptical. I don't think the object is made by Boitsov. The mark does not fit to Boitsov's mark. He marked В.Б with a dot. In addition, I miss this mark. It should be on every detachable part with the maker's mark. Something is wrong...

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Zolotnik
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Re: Can you identify a BB maker's mark please?

Postby Zolotnik » Fri Mar 04, 2011 10:09 am

To Frontfloater

Now that it is clearly shown that the maker´s mark is BB (lat.V V), in my sources I have only one fitting: Viktorov, Vasilij Viktorovitsch. If he is the maker, I can not say - he was known for his religious articles. It is possible that he was not the maker but the vendor - very common around 1900 and later.
Source: P-L. p 180, # 1240
The two charms (egg and shoe) were added later - the bracelet comes without. They are correctly stamped at the eyelet.

Marking of jewelry in Russia was total different from marking other objects. Bracelets or belts were marked once on the lock completely (depending of the time with the appropriate marks). If with Kokoshnik mark, always with the certificate mark (the small, round mark with a head). The single links were marked either only with the maker´s mark (Moscow and St. Petersburg) or with the silver content mark 84 Zolotniki (in the Caucasus region). Rings and diadems were mostly only marked with the gold content or were without marks. Platinum was never marked. Today and in the past it is/was very, very hard to discover and proof Russian jewelry exept it comes from the owner with some receipts etc. Many Fabergé jewels were only through the paperwork of the owner detected. A fact that is understandable - even today jewels are only marked with the content of the precious metall - when you know that there is not much space on a ring where you can mark.

Enamel belt (Moscow/E.T. Samoshin, 1900, fully marked on the lock, links only with maker´s mark)

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Niello belt (St. Petersburg/Khodzhaev, 1900, fully marked on the lock, links with silver content 84 - though made in St. Petersburg it should bear the maker´s mark - but it was ordered/made for customers in Caucasus - therefore 84 Zolotniki mark. Can you follow the logic?

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Sources:
Русское Сереброб Вторая Половина 19 - Начало 20 Века
Russian Gold and Silverwork, Alexander von Solodkoff
Fabergé, Géza von Habsburg
and others

Qrt.S
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Re: Can you identify a BB maker's mark please?

Postby Qrt.S » Fri Mar 04, 2011 11:09 am

Indeed, it is a very narrow possibility that it might be made by Vasilij Viktorovitsh Viktorov, but? He marked about 1864~1894 but not anymore in the 20th century. As Zolotnik already mentioned he was a merchant but also a goldsmith. He kept his jewelery and silver shop in Nikolajevskaja uliza 45 in St Petersburg in the last quarter of 19th century.

The marking is also a minor problem. This is a bracelet but is is a chain or how do you define it. On a chain it is of obvious reasons rather difficult to mark every single part, too many and too small parts, no space. According to that the marks were in the ends only on the lock parts. But in this case each part is rather big and clearly marked with the marker's mark. In my mind there should also be punched the small kokoshnik (the showed one) where a maker's mark is punched. There is plenty of space. Anyway this is of minor interest. I don't think we can come much further in this discussion.

Zolotnik
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Re: Can you identify a BB maker's mark please?

Postby Zolotnik » Fri Mar 04, 2011 12:37 pm

To Qrt.S

There is a big difference between a chain and a bracelet (technically spoken), even between chains and chains are big differences. Normal chains with links are stamped only at the lock. Chains for pectoral (breast crosses of the popes) crosses consists of eyelets and oval shaped silver objects, which are stamped on the silverobjects and on the cross (cross fully, silver objects with silver content).
The bracelet we speak about consists of a chain of hollow silver objects in enamel clausonné, conected by eyelets. To mark hollow objects is not easy - this marks are not done with a punch and a hammer but pressed by hand! If you do not understand the technique just ask a jeweller how he marks sensitive objects.

Qrt.S wrote: Anyway this is of minor interest.


Maybe for you - but Frontfloater want to know what he has - and after all the negative opinions he must think something is wrong with his nice bracelet. I can see no discrepancies. The bracelets I have owned or handeled were identical, exept the different makers. Just a look at the lock (typicall) convience. As far as I know there are no bracelet fakes on the market. So thumbs up!

Qrt.S wrote: I don't think we can come much further in this discussion.


Change "we" in "I" than it is more honest.

The only riddle is the maker. Always adding the full address (long gone) of the workshop make the search not more satisfaying

Qrt.S
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Re: Can you identify a BB maker's mark please?

Postby Qrt.S » Fri Mar 04, 2011 1:24 pm

No reason to be nasty or to teach me English! "There is a difference between a chain and bracelet" ????? Really! Why do you think I mentioned it? If you P...Zolotnik don't know, a chain can also be made and used as a bracelet, now you know it too. In addition, I already mentioned where the marks should be depending on the object's construction and why.

Yes Frontfloater wants to know what he has. But picking a similar mark (BB, P#1240) and and not paying any attention to that the kokoshink is from 1908-1927 and that Viktorovitsh is not know to for sure have worked anymore in the 20th century, does not make it better. There is, however, a very VERY limited possibility that it is him or rather from his shop, but..?

The market is flooded with fake Russian enamel work, especially made in cloisonné (kindly pay attention to the spelling).

"The address does not make the research more satisfying" !? Maybe not but it was for the records only, not the research. What was the mission with your pictures?

Zolotnik
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Re: Can you identify a BB maker's mark please?

Postby Zolotnik » Fri Mar 04, 2011 2:44 pm

This unpolite form of discussion is not my style. I better leave!

Dad
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Re: Can you identify a BB maker's mark please?

Postby Dad » Fri Mar 04, 2011 6:03 pm

Hi, All.
To Frontfloater

Thanks for new photos. One more request: show an accurate photo of marks on the lock. (An oval, a circle). Please.

To Zolotnik

The order of marking of precious products is in detail described in "Rules of a marking-off from 1908"
For rings, and for bracelets, and for chains....
But why Viktorov? I consider that approaches more: Vasiliev Vasily Vasilievich, gold and silversmith, from 1893 to 1895 owner a silver workshop, from 1896 to 1902 owned a gold and silver workshop: Ekaterininsky Channel, 40-26. St. Petersburg. initials on the hallmark: BB, BBB (Source: Ivanov A.N.)
Why not?

Zolotnik
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Re: Can you identify a BB maker's mark please?

Postby Zolotnik » Fri Mar 04, 2011 9:18 pm

To Dad

Dad wrote:The order of marking of precious products is in detail described in "Rules of a marking-off from 1908"
For rings, and for bracelets, and for chains....


Is it possible to post this order on this Site or PM me - if in Russian, no problem
I would be very grateful and it would help me tremendous with my work, spotting Russian jewelry.

Thanks in advance!

Frontfloater
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Re: Can you identify a BB maker's mark please?

Postby Frontfloater » Sun Mar 06, 2011 9:18 am

To Dad -
Here are some better photos of the lock, as you requested. Thanks for your help.
BOB

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Dad
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Re: Can you identify a BB maker's mark please?

Postby Dad » Sun Mar 06, 2011 1:14 pm

Thanks. These are good photos. Marks on the lock the original. On a photo arrows have shown, where there could be marks.

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