COLLIER, Robert (Grimwade p.469)

[buckler]

Heal p.128 gives him as Collier, Silversmith in Gutter Lane in 1747

He was almost certainly gone (retired/dead?) from that address by 1761 as John Gorham 's will dated 28th February 1761 and proved 23rd April 1761 left his tools to his apprentice William London. London entered his mark as a smallworker on 4th May 1761 at Gutter Lane, presumably at Gorham's old premises. No mention is made of Collier's presence at this time

He was certainly dead by 1767 as his ex-apprentice Mr James Phipps, Goldsmith married " t St Mary Whitechapel..... Mrs Elizabeth Collier , Widow of Mr Robert Collier ,snuff-box maker and tipper , in Gutter-lane, Cheapside."
(Gazetteer and New Daily Advertiser 28 April 1767)

[buckler]

Marriage recorded in 1728 at St Michael Highgate for a Robert Collier of St John Zachary to Mary Dillon or Dillow of Hornsey.
This fits the known chronology of Robert Collier of apprenticeship 1719, freedom 1726, first mark 1728. However it might appear that he and John Gorham may have had a relationship.

[buckler]

The Daily Courant of 11 January 1731 reports
QUOTE
The same day [9 January 1731] Mr Collier, a Small Plate Worker and Buckle Maker, in Bartholomew-Close, being disordered in his Senses, cut his throat almost from Ear to Ear in so dismal a manner ,that he died on the spot.
UNQUOTE

This raises a problem. Assuming that "Small Plate Worker" indicates a silversmith, either we have a journeyman or sub-contracter called Collier without a registered mark, or Grimwade has conflated two Robert Colliers. If the Grimwade entry does embrace two separate guys , then the first registered a mark in 1727 and died in 1931 and the other was still alive in 1737 to register another mark. But both of these were in Gutter Lane., not Bartholomew Close - which is a long way off.

I know someone working on Robert Collier, who unfortunately is extremely reticent to discuss him , other than to confirm that there were several Robert Colliers. Hopefully his work will ultimately see the light of day !

[MCB]

As has been indicated Robert Collier is a name not uncommon in the London annals of the time but research has uncovered a few facts which may be of interest to Forum members.
John Gorham was a Gutter Lane resident from around 1728 but a Robert Collier doesn’t appear on the Land Tax records for that address until 1744.
The particular property had previously been occupied for quite some time by a Samuel Barnard and was empty in 1743. Moving in to the property Collier would have been a near neighbour of other silversmith luminaries such as Gabriel Sleath, Sandilands Drinkwater and David Hennell and no doubt work might have come his way from them.
Robert Collier or Collyer was assessed to Land Tax on the property until 1755. Frustratingly the 1756 Land Tax book seems to be missing but in 1757 the assessment was made on the Widow Collyer and so continued until at least 1761. As Robert had died this could be one explanation as to why he wasn’t mentioned in Gorham’s Will. Another might be that he had left Gorham after 1737 and had set up on his own in St Vedast parish (see the following).
There was a bond signed by a 26 year old bachelor and silversmith named Robert Collier from St Vedast parish to marry Elizabeth Smith, an 18 year old spinster from St Ann, Blackfriars. Originally intended for St Ann, Blackfriars the wedding eventually took place in January 1744, with her father’s consent, at St Andrew by the Wardrobe. The groom a silversmith, the bride named Elizabeth and the marriage in 1744 all fit in nicely but, if the groom told the truth about his age and status on the marriage bond, he wouldn’t have been the one to enter the 1727 mark at Goldsmiths Hall or the one who married Mary Dillon. It is also uncertain why he would have said he was from St Vedast parish if he had still lived with Gorham in Gutter Lane. On the other hand it would explain why Elizabeth was recorded as his widow when marrying James Phipps in 1767.
Sadly none of this fully explains the enigma of the various silversmiths named Robert Collier or identifies the man in the dreadful event of 1731 but perhaps it might generate further information.

Mike

[buckler]

Information from Jerome Farrell of the Leathersellers'. To whom much praise and grateful thanks.

There only seems to be one person of the name of Robert Collier who was a Freeman of the Leathersellers. He was made Free on 7 July 1726 having been apprenticed to Robert Elliot who is shown in Quarterage book as 'a silver smith in Gutter Lane'.

The Quarterage book also shows Robert Collier from 1726 to 1730 'near Goldsmiths Hall, silversmith'. Payments cease after 1730 and the word 'dead' appears - which strongly suggests he is the same Collier who died by his own hand in 1731.

So we undoubtedly have another silversmith Robert Collier whose mark was registered "At Mr Gorhams in Gutter Lane " in 1737.
Elizabeth Collier may have been his widow, or even the widow of a third Collier.
The only thing we can say is that they were almost certainly not free of the Leathersellers.

I think Grimwade must be excused for conflating the two. Two silversmiths with the same name in Gutter Lane at the same time must have confused everybody even then !

[MCB]

Looking at the transcription of the 1731 newspaper report again there is ambiguity with regard to the words "in Bartholomew Close". Does this indicate Collier worked there or that he died there? If the latter the other facts which have now come to light suggest he could well be the one who entered the mark from Gutter Lane in 1727 and may still have had his home there prior to his death.
Further research shows a Robert Collier, the son of Edward Collier, was christened in 1718 at St Lawrence Jewry which is next to the Guildhall and geographically close to Gutter Lane and Foster Street. He is a candidate for the 26 year old who said he was from St Vedast parish in marrying Elizabeth in 1744, who set up shop in Gutter Lane in that year and who died in 1755 or 1756.
A Robert Collyer (note the slightly different spelling), son of Edward Collyer of the Haberdashers Company, then of (Blackwell?) Street, apprenticed in 1733 to another Haberdasher Thomas Leach, could be the same individual. He was made free in 1740-1.
If the above resolves two of the issues all we need now is to find who married Mary Dillon and whether it was a Richard Collier other than the 19 year old apprentice Haberdasher who entered the 1737 maker's mark from Gutter Lane.
Will these Richard Colliers please contact the Forum!

Mike

[buckler]

I think we may have THREE guys !

Robert Collier, the son of Edward Collier, was christened in 1718
Apprenticed in 1733 to another Haberdasher Thomas Leach. Age around 15 fits nicely.
He was made free in 1740-1. Seven year apprenticeship - now aged 21 . Still a good fit
But to enter a mark in 1737 . Aged 19. Still an apprentice and legally a child . Does not compute !

The third silversmith Robert Collier ?

[buckler]

Returning to the fray I checked James Phipps in Grimwade.
Yes, result! Page 622

This states that Phipps was originally apprenticed to William Pinnell in 1741 and turned over to Robert Collier, CLOCKMAKER.
We know Grimwade made extensive use of the Goldsmith's Hall records of Apprenticeships which only cover their members. So Pinnell would have been members of the Goldsmith's company, whereas this Robert Collier appears to have been a member of the Clockmakers. ( The Goldsmiths Apprentice Books give marginal notes of turnovers, including to other Guilds members, from which Grimwade probably got his information on RC the Clockmaker. ) To confuse matters Phipps would have been a Goldsmith, as it's the original master who determines the freedom company.

So now we know the approx date of birth of Phipps, circa 1727.
Which fits nicely with marrying at age 40 , a widow Elizabeth Collier who was born around 1726 thus aged about 41 ( she was 18 when she married Collier in 1744).

So now we have a Leatherseller RC
a Clockmaker RC
and a Haberdasher RC

I suspect that the odd guy out is the Haberdasher - we have no evidence that he was a silversmith, more likely a red herring

Are we back to only two again ?

But still the problem of the 1737 mark registration of WC the Clockmaker. He's still too young .
But if Grimwade has misread the date of 6 October 1739 (nine) as 1737 ( not difficult ) the problem resolves.
I have a precedent for this . Grimwade totally confused me by on Samuel Eatons mark of 16 March 1763 being recorded as 1768 - when Eaton was dead !

I think a check of the 1737 mark is called for!

Watch this space .

[buckler]

The Register entry at Goldsmiths' Hall is clearly dated 'October ye 6 1737'.

It follow after an entry dated 2 November 1736 and precedes one dated 27 Feb 1738(NS)

Good theory destroyed by facts . So the red herring may be back !

Watch this space, but without holding your breath !

[MCB]

When Robert Collier made the oath to marry Elizabeth Smith he said he was 27 not 26 years old as previously reported. Even though the marriage took place took place on 31st January 1744 I now also find the oath was dated 30th January 1743, unusually a year and a day earlier.
My apologies to all for the confusion caused.
Page 69 of the book Watchmakers and Clockmakers of the Word identifies a Robert Collier who began his apprenticeship in 1730 and, as we know, would usually then have been around 14 years of age.
Robert Collier of the Clockmakers would therefore probably have been 27 years old in 1743 and the one who made the oath and married Elizabeth Smith.
Although the Watchmaker etc publication indicates he was in the Clockmakers Company from 1738-51 there is no reason why he might not have completed his apprenticeship by October 1737 to enter the mark from Gutter Lane.

Mike

[buckler]

Getting clearer by the minute.

I think probably the two dates of the marriage have been expressed in two different ways , the licence document being in the old style which has 1743 running from April to March the next year ; and the marriage date which some kind soul at Ancestry has adjusted to the modern system, which has 1743 from running from January to December.

We should always try to remember to express all pre 1756 dates between January and March by the convention of OS year/ NS year.
We all fall foul of this one. The Govermental budget year is from 6th April to 5th April even now .

So I think we have

30 January 1743 OS ie 30 January 1743/44. Licence
31 January 1744 NS ie 31 January 1743/44. Marriage
So both are these dates are in January 1744 by modern reckoning. They must have been in a hurry.

Which, with a bit of stretch, means that we may be able to put the Haberdasher RC back to red herring status , and just have the Leatherseller RC to 1731 and the Clockmaker RC from 1737. It now looks as though the Clockmaker may have been old enough to register a mark in October 1737

Are we there yet ?

I know my head hurts !

[buckler]

There is considerable in formation on Collier in an article by Peter Cameron
"Family Business: Robert Collier, the master of James Phipps I, silversmith "
at http://www.petercameronantiquesilver.co ... ess1ab.pdf
Our thanks to Peter, as it resolves some , if not all, of the headaches associated with the Colliers .