Help with Russian hallmarks on a tea strainer

[jackk]

Ok, here is the one that puzzles me. I usually don't buy spoons, or flatware in general, but I had to get this tea strainer because of this mark. City mark looks to show a smith (or a silversmith) at work. Any help?

[Juke]

Hi!

Sorry but nothing to do with russian marks.

Regards,
Juke

[jackk]

What are these then? I can clearly see Cyrillic letters there. I do not believe these are fake marks, so what are they?

[Juke]

That there are cyrillic letters don't make it russian, I highly recommend to use a trustworthy litterature on russian hallmarks to check hallmarks. It has been mentioned for instance Postnikova-Loseva, Russian Gold and Silverwork from the 15th to 20th Century or some other reliable litterature.

[jackk]

If I was able to find these marks in Postnikova, I wouldn't be posting my question here, would I? :)
Anyhow, the closest resemblance of these marks that I can think of are of Russian hallmarks. Let's analyze these marks - we see here Cyrillic letters, a date 1841, and "84" mark - all present on widely known Russian hallmarks. Therefore, my first guess is: Russian or related territories origin.
If you claim they are not from that part of the world, where are they from?

[dognose]

Hi Jack,

A clearer photo, especially of the mark on the far right, may be of assistance in finding a positive answer.

Regards Trev.

[jackk]

Sure. Here it is.

[dognose]

Hi,

Just playing devil's advocate here.

Could these be the marks of a Russian Jewish silversmith? Jewish silversmiths at this period often operated within their own circles and were known to bypass all forms of official hallmarking when manufacturing orders from customers of their own faith. I'm aware of the harsh laws in Russia regarding anyone who stepped out of line in the marking of precious metals, but there are many examples of such violations of the rules.

If anyone has a copy of 'Crowning Glory', Silver Torah Ornaments of the Jewish Museum, New York, they illustrate quite a few examples of pseudo Russian marks that were applied to Jewish pieces in the 19th century.

Bearing in mind the crude quality of the punches, could the above be the answer?

Trev.

[Juke]

Hi,

Jack, well it is good to think how Europe in that part of the world looked in those times, there were Russia, Prussia, Austria and the Ottoman empire which covered the area and none of these had this kind of markings, no related territories with some other markings. If you don't find the marks in PL, then you can't expect them to be authentic russian.

Dognose, crude quality of the punches is good to notice and it is an important factor making analyses of the marks, if one wishes to think that the origin to be someone outside the official hallmarkings one can think that way but I call it then wishing without any evidence, there are more easier explanations, well you have to make your own conclusion.

Regards,
Juke

[jackk]

Juke, I understand you are leaning toward a conclusion that this is a fake item. I see a trend that we (here on forum and at antique markets) are too quick to label an item fake. It's not my intention to stop it, as I realize the market is over saturated with fakes, but we should just be more careful with our (sometimes erroneous) opinions. On another hand, this widespread fear of fakes benefits collectors and dealers who are more skilled in the subject. I cannot deny a fact that I was able to purchase authentic silver items for a fraction of their value because the seller was sure he/she was selling a counterfeit item.
I'd rather agree with Trev theory as to these marks. I do not see a logical explanation why someone would want to fake a simple tea strainer and use marks that clearly do not adhere to standard Russian hallmarking laws. Additionally, I am 100% sure this tea strainer is over 100 years old. Still, monetary value of this item is very small, i.e. it is not worth the time and material to fake it. Today, it would cost more to manufacture it than what this item can be sold for.

[Juke]

Hi!

What you write is understandable and I don't directly disagree on it. How to make an approach when studing an hallmark, in this case first of all is it according to russian hallmarking, the answear is no, so they could be called pseudo marks. What are they then, when are the hallmarks struck, can't say. Could the hallmarks be of a provincial manufacture, possibly, can't say if there has been such production, at least I have never heard of any study or litterature recalling them. In cases of pseudo marks typically someone has wanted to mislead the buyer with the hallmarks independent which countries the hallmarks resemble German, French, Russian etc.

In case of Jewish russian silver I guess you have heard that many items are not what they seem and never used by the Jews so they have been made to mislead again the buyers. As you are from New York and if you are interested why not check the book mentioned by dognose, maybe there is something new.

Regards,
Juke

[Postnikov]

Hi -

I think this marks could be Persian (now Iran), they used 84 zolotniki and the types of numbers are typical as well as the symbols. Normaly the assaymaster is in Farsi.
They are absolute not Russian and for fakemarks (Russian) they are too precise (perfect punches). No faker would invest so much work to create Russian "Micky Mouse" marks.
A picture of the object would help a lot!

Regards
Postnikov