Request of expl. on Silver Mirror. HELP?

[tux]

info about the marks would be great!
I know the ZII stands for 2th Silver, but the others?

CBZ+
John Duan (or something like that?)
Bowl 2 (Obvious 2th Silver but what country)
Davis Star? (Egypt?)

Thanks!

[dognose]

Hi Tux,

You have what appears to me as a Spanish piece that been imported into the Netherlands.

See: http://www.925-1000.com/foreign_marks.html for information on the Spanish origin.

The 'ZII' mark is the Dutch import mark indicating a minimum standard of 835/1000.

Hopefully someone a better knowledge of Dutch or Spanish marks can add some meat to these bare bones.

Trev.

[tux]

Thanks for your reply.
I'll look further into Spanish marks.
Although the page tells the Pentagram is min. 915/1000 so that's not really compatible.

[dognose]

Indeed it is compatible, the important word is minimum. The next grade in Dutch import marks is 'ZI' for a minimum of 925/1000.

Trev.

[silverport]

»Z II« = Dutch Import Mark f. 835; »CBZ« (actually unknown by me) = Importer in NL.

Hello

The mirror is an from Spain after 1 September 1953 by »CBZ« in The Netherlands imported object - »Z II« is the Dutch Assay Office mark for imported items of 835-1,000 fineness, in force from 1 September 1953 on.

The by you so interpreted “Davis Star? (Egypt?)” is instead of this a »five« pointed star; this »Pentapoint Star« is the symbol for Spanish silverwares (of normally 915-1,000 fineness; or the antic »11 dinero« [of 12 = 1,000]). The »Vase« in a hexagon is the maker’s mark of the »Fábrica de Platería de Pedro Durán« in Madrid; this »Durán« owned factory was founded in 1968. So, yours mirror is made on some days from about that time on.

Yours mirror couldn't get the »Z I« import mark; because that mark is a warranty for the international also usual 'Sterling fineness' of 925-1,000.

The signature »Pedro Durán« in script is his artist’s signature — for a products range in series of several different items; e.g. in this case also for additional personal care products.

When you are visiting Spain, you could, well very secret, see how children, and especially the boys, develop and train an own signature — with »grandeza« in the final part of at least two flourish lines and curves, like a lasso, below their name. This then once trained signature remain their signature their whole life, almost unchanged.

In Spain is always the first name after the Christian names, the father’s and so the family name, followed by the mother’s maiden name. In Portugal these two change their position to be mother’s maiden name as first, followed by the father’s name.

In this case, »Durán« is the father’s and family name — an old and well known name in »Catalunya«. But the mirrors origin is from Madrid; where the founder of this Silversmith’ family became about 100 year ago a court supplier.

Kind regards silverport

[tux]

Indeed it is compatible, the important word is minimum. The next grade in Dutch import marks is 'ZI' for a minimum of 925/1000.

Trev.

As I explained it's marked ZII not ZI so its 835 not 925 and thats why the Pentagram sign was weird because it's 915 and up and this is only 835, but Silverport explained nicely.

[tux]

Thanks Silverport!
So this item is actually 915/1000, but since it's imported It cannot say ZI because it's then overgraded.
So they had to put a lower ZII (835) Mark and take the miss, right?
Thanks for all info!

Cheers, Tux

[tux]

Found the missing info on CBZ+

Bos & Zn. Amsterdam, From 1966

[silverport]

International in many Assay systems is a kind of “degradation” punch usual.

Hello »tux«

»dognose« Trev. already explained, and you’ve in between understood too, that’s international usual in many Assay systems, to use a kind of “degradation” punch, when the imported item is made from a lower fineness of silver alloy, as the next grade, they’ve as their leveled minimum.

So, an item imported from the United Kingdom to The Netherlands, which is made in »Britannia Fineness« of »958-1,000« would be from the Dutch Assay System “degraded” too — because they’ve the »Z I« indication only = »Items made from Silver of a minimum fineness of 925-1,000«.

As I understood yours former notices, you’ve already understood this, but you like to get a confirmation only.

These kinds of Import’s handling in Assay Systems include the possibility, to get a higher grade item as their »Import mark’s« minimum.

Some country’ Assay System are using one mark only as »Import mark« - without differentiations in indication of fineness or country of origin. Well, almost all Assay System don’t indicate on imported items the country of origin.

If imported items don’t have any »Import mark« of that country where the item is, then it’s:

Not “imported” = e.g. souvenirs, or presents, or …
Not shown to the National Assay System.
The item is below any lowest grade * of the National Assay System.

* That was in the along past in The Netherlands, with e.g. imported German Silverware in 800-1,000 fineness — officially they weren’t made from »Silver«; “seen”, like as to be made from brass …

Importers and German Exporters were disagreeing — so the »Z« punch was created there fore, to finish the “discrimination”.

I hope that this little “excursion” hasn’t boring you to much — because it seems, that you aren’t in pampers of a New-be’.

For the indication of the Importer, and time frame of been registered with that mark, I thank you!

Kind regards silverport

[silverport]

»Pedro Durán Morales« - the company is elder as I've assumed, and still active too.

Hello »tux«

In between I've found an internet-site of »Pedro Durán«: http://www.pedroduran.com/default.asp?lang=es

In their »HISTORIA« presentation, well in Spanish (the English version is under construction), you could find also the signature, which is used on yours mirror frame. That's the signature of their ancestor, Pedro Durán Morales.

Kind regards silverport

[silverport]

Your mirror’s frame is lacquered contra tarnish with a crystal clear lacquer.

Hello »tux«

In a Spanish internet site I’ve found a notice, that the company »Pedro Durán« use a crystal clear lacquer as protection contra tarnish — maybe you write them an e-mail and ask them, if it is also the case by yours mirror frame? Their e-mail-address, I think you could find in their already by me mentioned internet site.

Here is the notice, was dated 30 April 2006:

» Han pasado los años y el marco está impecable, pero a más a más sin habberlo limpiado como otros marcos de plata con los que hay que tener el cuidado de limpiarlos cada poco tiempo, sino se van quedando negros y muy feos.
Este marco después de un tiempo mi madre me contó que hace tiempo a los marcos de esta firma Pedro Durán, les dan una especie de barniz que no influye para nada en la vistosidad de la plata, ya que totalmente transparente y este barniz protector hace que el único mantenimiento que necesita es quitarle el polvo como si de cualquier otro marco se tratara.
Y doy fé que es así.
No es necesario andar con limpiezas, ni productos especiales para el buen mantenimiento de esta plata.
Unicamente quitarle el polvo. «

Translation:

“The years have passed, and the frame is immaculate; but by time and while he wasn’t cleaned, like as it is necessary on other frames of silver, which makes it necessary, to be attend to clean them every short while; because without this attention, they became tarnished until to be black and very ugly.

On this frame, after a while my mother told me, that since a long time ago, the frames made by Pedro Durán, were lacquered with a special lacquer, which hasn’t any influence on the appeal of silver; because the lacquer is absolute crystal clear, and protect so, that it is only necessary to remove the dust; so as it is necessary to handle other frames too.

I testify that this is the truth.

It isn’t necessary to turn up with cleaner’, or special products for a good care of such a kind of silver.

The only thing you’ve to do is, use a soft duster.”

I hope that this is nice to know, and would help you too.

Kind regards silverport

[tux]

Cool, thanks for all info!
No not what you could say new-bee at all ;)
If only you knew :-)

Cheers!