Help with sugar bowl marks and engraving

[Kiwi Doug]

Hi
Have been unable to confirm maker, city, or date marks. Think is around 1818-1820 depending on city! Also any thoughts on engraving? Bowl approx 8 x 4 cm thought to be from Scottish ancestor Legg of Auchenblae.
Thank you

[oel]

Hi,

Leopard’s head crowned for London, date letter d, for 1819-1820, and duty mark for George III. Hence the London date letter for 1779-1780 looks almost the same but duty marks were introduced in 1784-1785 George III facing left, on a rectangular outline with clipped corners. As of 1786-87 oval form and George facing right.
The maker’s mark (I dot B) rectangular with clipped corners, could perhaps be for John Bridge see pocket edition Jackson’s hallmarks page 61 and comment: John Bridge important maker ( the Bridge of Rundell, Bridge & Rundell). However there are other possibilities see:
http://www.silvermakersmarks.co.uk/Make ... IA-ID.html
For the family crest see treads on:
viewforum.php?f=60

Regards,
Oel

[Kiwi Doug]

Hi Oel
Thanks for your prompt and informative reply, will follow up the links you gave me. As a total novice at this, am finding the site and forums very interesting. However just to make sure I understand your comments you're saying, that despite year letter being similar to 1779-80, because G III is looking to right, (introduced after 1786) then the year letter must be after 1786, and best match is for 1819-20?

Had wondered if maker could also have been John Booth. Unfortunately article is some 400kms away so cant have a more detailed look, now I have found this site.

Thanks again for your help
Regards
Doug

[oel]

Hi Kiwi Doug,

Correct, if you only showed me this particularly London date letter d, I could not make a decision between both possibilities. Perhaps an expert could, but not me. The duty mark in this case is a good indicator, to narrow down the date letter d, for 1819-1820.

Regards,

Oel

[Kiwi Doug]

Thanks again Oel

Can see, like genealogy, the detective work could become addictive - must have a closer look in my cupboards!!

Regards
Doug

[Kiwi Doug]

Hi Oel

Can I ask a question - the Silver Maker's marks link gives potentially 7 people using the same makers mark and you suggest my maker may be John Bridge. However he is registered in 1823 and my date letter is for 1819-20, so should I be looking at makers registered on or before 1819-20?
I think I understand a 'plate worker' is likely to work with sheet metal making plates jugs bowls etc but what did 'small workers' make?
Probably when I get hold of Jackson's Hallmarks it will all become clear! Sorry to impose on you.

Regards
Doug

[oel]

Good day Kiwi Doug

You are very right my mistake, the maker’s mark must have been registered before or on the year of the used date letter. I believe you will become a good silver gynecologist.

Regard,

Oel

[Kiwi Doug]

Evening Oel

Thanks again - this detective stuff can be fun!

Doug

[oel]

Hello Kiwi Doug,

Just to inform, you could ask the: library@thegoldsmiths.co.uk
They are the best and very friendly to assist, all they have to know is your question with a photo of the hallmarks, and all this great service comes for free!
Good luck and inform this forum of the outcome. Thanks in advance.

Best regards,
Oel

[Kiwi Doug]

Hi again Oel

Have a response from the Goldsmith's Library link you gave me, but had been hoping to get some further explanation of why the particular maker was suggested There seems to be about 5 possible makers with the same mark around the right date. Any way their first response was as follows:-

" I think that the maker’s mark was the mark of James Barratt which was entered in June 1816.
If you would like to find out further information on the crest there is a professional researcher, Luke Schrager, who undertakes works like that. He can be contacted at pursuivantresearch@yahoo.co.uk."

Thanks again for your interest and leads
Cheers
Doug

[Kiwi Doug]

Greetings again Oel

Further to my last post now have further information from Goldsmiths Library as follows:-

"I am afraid that the identification of popular initials such as IB or J B is fraught with difficulties.

Fortunately we have the original registers for this period which are supported by metal plates on which the marks are stamped and examination of these has led me to this conclusion.

One way of cutting down the possibilities is to look at the trade of the metalworker which can help — not always. The marks themselves do have inherent characteristics such as the ‘shield’ or surrounding shape and dimensions of the shield/ surround, the type of lettering, dots or pellets, and then spacing of the letters within the shield. This can be difficult to establish when you are looking at a worn mark and comparing it to reproductions of marks in reference books. Apart from all that —it is easy!

I think generally most marks are reasonably easy to identify because of initials, lettering, objects produced and time frames but we know that some combinations of letters exist in profusion and we assume that until relatively recently the assay offices did not seem to worry too much about metalworkers having similar marks."

Hadn't really thought about the form of the Library records, and think to have such old original metal marks is amazing!

Cheers
Doug

[oel]

Hi Kiwi Doug,

Thanks for sharing .

Greetins,

Oel