Unidentified German Mark

[JoyousParkin]

I checked your website and could not find this mark...appears to be a head of some type, its for sure German. Plus there's an A on it but its way down. It's on a Cigarette case if that helps at all. Also provided a close up of some writing on it as well. Thanks and sorry for the bother

http://i874.photobucket.com/albums/ab306/muffincrunch/image027.jpg

http://i874.photobucket.com/albums/ab306/muffincrunch/image028.jpg
(admin photo edit - images too large - link only - see Posting Requirements )

[silverport]

Hello

Welcome to the forums.

Your cigarettes case is of German origin — but there are some doubts on shown third mark:

First punch (combined): Crescent, Crown = Sign from 1 January 1888 on for German silver.

Second punch: 800 = fineness indication of 800-1,000 fineness.

Third mark (in a kind of triangle): maker’s mark (unknown; but maybe an Austrian »pseudo mark«?).

Fourth mark (in a hexagon, left side incomplete): Austrian mark for foreign silverware, in use from 1872-1901.

Please look here: http://www.925-1000.com/Faustria_02.html

Second photo (in capital letters engraved inscription):

L. SCHUCH * NACHF. WIEN. [* = ……‘s]

Retailer (they haven’t had a registered trade mark); described in NW1, vol. II, p. 198:

SCHUCH’s, L. NACHFOLGER,
G. EDLAUER
K. u. k. Hoflieferant
Firmengründung: 1831
I, Plankengasse 3
Teilnahme an der Jagdausstellung Wien
1910 („feinste Luxusgegenstände in Sil-
ber, Email, Elfenbein, Holz etc.“)

Translation:

Schuch’s, L., Successor
G. Edlauer
Austrian imperial court supplier
Founded: 1831
Vienna centre, Plankengasse 3
Participation of Hunting Exhibition Vienna
in 1910 (“Exquisite Luxury objects made in silver,
enamel, ivory, wood and other materials)

The shown third mark is struck more far away as usual to the other German marks. Maker’s mark’s normally struck nearer, or in combination with the other indication marks.

The mark don’t even fit in their details to the then usual Austrian »3, greyhound, A« mark.

Would you please show only a photo of this third mark, with more visible details; thank you!

Kind regards silverport

[JoyousParkin]

Ok here's the best picture I can get, I don't have anything better then a 60 MM Macro unfortunately.

http://i874.photobucket.com/albums/ab30 ... C_0002.jpg

[silverport]

Hello

Thank you for the new picture.

Sorry there fore that I had my doubts on third mark — my doubts and interpretation that it isn’t either maker’s mark or Austrian »greyhound« mark were correct.

The third mark is a Dutch import mark for little objects; sign there fore that import tax was paid — first in use long time before 1 Nov. 1893; then after only this version was in use, until 31 Dec. 1905.

So could be interpreted: Made in Germany, and imported to The Netherlands until 1900 or much earlier; then after imported to Austria until 1901.

Kind regards

[JoyousParkin]

That is amazing you are able to tell that much, certainly makes sense, perhaps helps with this translation as well, which I think is Norwegian. Any guesses as to what it says?

http://i874.photobucket.com/albums/ab30 ... age021.jpg

[silverport]

Hello again

Yes of course it could be also, that yours cigarettes case was first imported from Schuch’s successor, and then after from them or who ever exported to The Netherlands as well.

Then range of time frame would be from 1 January 1888 to 31 December 1905.

My first interpretation of possible timeframe is based on the fact that the Dutch import tax mark is struck near the other, German marks.

The Dutch Assayers are well known for their sensibility of choice of the place where to strike the punches. Well it could be also, that for same reason of sensibility, they’ve struck their import tax mark between the German silver marks and the Austrian import mark — after be imported from Austria to The Netherlands?

One fact remains unsolved: Who was the German maker?

In a German Address Registry of 1903 are registered a little bit more then 60 producers for their speciality of making »Snuff-boxes, cigar- and cigarette-cases, match-boxes in silver«:

Hermann Bauer, Schwäbisch Gmünd … Albert Ziegler, Pforzheim.

Of course, some others more made also this range of products as a part of another main products range; but haven’t specially mentioned this in their information, given to this Address Registry for Professionals.

Kind regards silverport

[silverport]

Hello again

The dedication of 1899 is of Hungarian origin; dedicated to a from the dedicator’s beloved Professor Pongracz: ȃlgen hadnag y úr Próf Pongracz Györ 1899«

Sorry, my knowledge of six languages isn’t sufficient for translation; there fore our co-admin dognose made me attend on »google translator«. But »google translator« is as stupid as I was in my age of pampers, 70 years ago. Please make a proof by yourself.

If you would google “Pongracz” you would get many interesting information’s on people.

Maybe write to this homepage: http://www.gyoergy-pongracz.de/pongracz/index.html

It could be that they, Györ’fi oriented, have a clue, who it was, who has got dedicated this cigarettes case?

Also if you google “Györ” you would get some interesting information’s on the town as well.

Good luck in to solve this European mystery for yourself!

Kind regards silverport

[silverport]

Hello again

The dedication of 1899 is of Hungarian origin, I’ve made in the first word's interpretation a mistake: g instead of j.

»Éljen hadnag y úr Próf Pongracz Györ 1899«

It seems to be a dedication on occasion of an advanced anniversary, of several ages (maybe 75; less or more?).

Good luck of solve the dedication's signification.

Kind regards silverport

[JoyousParkin]

Perhaps this crest on the front has some significance that I'm unaware of. Showing a picture of it was well. Plus it has a woman's picture inside it, maybe explaining why the dedication was scratched out.

http://i874.photobucket.com/albums/ab30 ... e026-1.jpg

http://i874.photobucket.com/albums/ab30 ... age020.jpg

[silverport]

Hello

It’s already mentioned in the Genealogy site, http://www.gyoergy-pongracz.de/pongracz ... alogy.html

That the »Pongrácz« are a Hungarian Family of Nobility — as usual in a patriarchal »Major« system the eldest son has got the whole titles, and almost of the properties. But he was there fore also responsible, like as a "father" on the whole families.

The here shown »Baron’s« crown has got somebody of the latter born.

In the »gyoergy-pongracz« web site is also shown the arms of the »Pongrácz« - but that is different.

For to get cleared this, you must make your own heraldry research — Sorry, I’m totally incompetent there fore.

Maybe by time and while, you would find out also the identity of this young lady as well?

A request for final: Please let available, as long as ever possible, the posted photos. For maybe corrections later on — but also for enlarge the knowledge of others.

Thank you for your kindly cooperation!

Kind regards silverport