Unknown Mark, on Vermeil "Center table set"

[wcomander]

Hello, I have a 19th century banquet table center set comprised of "two chandeliers" of 5 candles, "two amphoras" , "two fruit bows " and a bigger center of table ornamented fruit bowl". They are all made of Silver and Gold "Vermeil". The only mark we could find in it was "833M". Can anybody help me?

PS: The pics are of one of the smaller Fruit Bowls!

Thanks!

[dognose]

Hi,

Welcome to the Forum.

This will narrow your search: http://www.925-1000.com/a_Standards.html

Trev.

[wcomander]

It helps, but still got no clue about the mark, the only thing I know for sure is that it is European and 19th Century... I guess the 833 means the purity and the M may hold the key to the where, when and who... I was thinking it was French, but it could be Spanish or Portuguese, since my grand father's great grand father acquired it when living in Europe between 1860 and 1875... during this time they lived in France and Portugal, they were Brazilian/Portuguese nobility and they probably used to buy from the best silver dealers!

Still in the dark needing help!

Thanks again!!

[Margaux]

The 833 M hallmark doesn´t fit in with the use of hallmarks in France. Not now and not in the way they use to do it before 1791.
May be have a better chance for an answer if you move your post to an other part of this forum "other countries"

[silverport]

Hello

It seems to me that these pieces aren’t official South European as well? Also if your ancestors has lived there.

Fineness mark in mil — and M as symbol for that; the only marks on a lot of pieces?

It could be a private buy of your ancestors — passed by, outside of official assaying? There fore are you now be punished.

Spain and Portugal had the »12/12 dinero system« (Spain) and »12/12 dinheiro system« (Portugal, and Brazil) = 10 dinero/dinheiro = 833.3/1,000.

But that was in Spain indicated until 2 February 1934 by: 10 D (crowned, in a cartouche) plus several other indicators.

In Portugal from 1887-1937 indicated by the Roman cipher II (with a landing eagle, in cartouches of several contour, in conformity of town).

In Spain the capital of the Balearics Island Province, Palma de Mallorca, has had a capital letter M, crowned by a dates palm tree, in a cartouche of several forms, as indication of town; later indicated by PM.

Italy? Look here — but it seems to me = No exit! As well also, Greece aren’t: http://www.925-1000.com/Fitalian_marks_01.html

In Berlin, Germany has existed a Silver ware factory, which has used an Antique style capital letter M as her mark:
Fritz Memmert (Details totally unknown to me! So I couldn’t state of: Yes, or No!)

Sorry!

Kind regards silverport

[wcomander]

Hello Silverport, thanks... It could be portuguese from before 1887 or Italian, judging by what you say... but I have no clue...

It could indeed be a private buy, I have no idea of how it was done or even when or where, I'm sure it is from the 19th Century and Europe that is all... All seven peaces have the same marks "833 M" that is the only mark. It is probably second half of 19th Century, but there is a chance it is first half. Maybe even older I really don't know how to judge it!!

thanks for the help

[silverport]

Hello wcomander,

I hope that you understand that we well like to assist - and there fore we do some times, days of research. Because the world of Silver, in form of jewellery, hollowware and flatware is real a »world« - and "blanc" area are in this world not only a few.

But we couldn't change the history; we couldn't change also the rules and customs of past or modern times.

Spain, and by Spain influenced have start from 2 February 1934 on with the »Mil«-system - not earlier!

Also Portugal, and e.g. Brazil have start from 1 January 1938 on with the »Mil«-system.

I hadn't explicit mentioned this for the past time spans, e.g. Portugal before 1866, or Spain before 11 August 1881.

Because I thought that that would be imaginable, also by normal education, that systems which handle ancient measurements, in this case »dinero« (Spain) or »dinheiro« (Portugal, and Brazil), "normally" wouldn't change from an old system to a "modern" system - and then after change again to their ancient system.

Sorry that I haven't especially explained this.

These Iberian area were the area where 11 dinero/dinheiro = Premier standard = 916.666-1,000 were usual; and 10 dinero/dinheiro = Second standard = 833,333-1,000, as yours case.

There exist a very big time gap between family history, and reality. I think you must make more research in your family itself - and if they were of Portuguese-Brazilian Nobility, I imagine, that there would be existing an archive, with lots of documents, “facturas” (invoices) ...

Sorry that actually I couldn't help you more as I've done until now.

In »925-1000« was some time ago also a question; look here: viewtopic.php?t=12118

But that was for final an item, made end of 20 century. Later, never we've heard from this guy any more.

Kind regards silverport

[wcomander]

Thank you again, I have been checking the old family documents we still have, "a few boxes" to see if we find anything that helps the identification of the pieces, but haven't had any success yet, Part of the family documents was lost in time, they stayed with part of the family we lost contact over the last 100 years, so I'm not sure we'll find anything regarding the "Vermeil pieces" .

So I'm still hoping someone will know something that will help in the identification!!

Thank you for any help anyone may give us!!

[silverport]

Hello wcommander & all

El »nó« estais em Berlim! The »knot« is in Berlin!

I’m very sure now, that the »birth« of these centrepieces was between 1882 [Company of Fritz Memmert be founded] until after 1 January 1888; and that their only »birthplace« was in the Prince’s Street 33, in Berlin South, in the district 42; and not every where!

Here I like to show you an excerpt from 1903, in which the company of Fritz Memmert is in brief described by themselves:

Memmert, J., Berlin S. 42, Prinzen-
str. 33. (1882.) Fabrik in Grossilberwaren.
Spezialität: Tabletts und Schüsseln, Münz-
sachen, Jardinieren, Schalen, Leuchter,
Service, etc. 942

Translation:

Memmert, J., Berlin S. 42, Prinzen-
str. 33. ([founded] 1882.) Factory of Silver wares.
Speciality: Trays and Bowls, Coin-
articles, Centre-pieces, Dishes, Candelabras,
Services [for Tea and Coffee], etc. 942

(942 is publishers registration number of entry - the brief entry was given by J. Memmert themselves. A maker’s mark of J. Memmert’s factory is, by incidence, not shown there.)

A similar question was about two years ago also placed in »925-1000« - please look here:

viewtopic.php?p=47590#47590

It seems to me now, that J. Memmert’s factory was preferred by whole seller and retailer, which were court supplier — and claimed there fore, that Memmert’s markings should be as discrete as ever possible?

Kind regards silverport

[wcomander]

Thank you silverport, but wouldn't the 833 fineness be a problem for the theory of being from Germany? Did the germans make Vermeil with fineness 833 at that time?

[admin]

The law of 1884 made .800 the minimum standard for Germany, but it did not set any specific standard for manufacturers to use. Consequently, many standards above .800 were used, the most common I've encountered are .800, .835, .900, .925 and .935, but there is no reason why a maker could not use .833 standard, or any other between .800 and .999 purity. Many German makers produced for export and they seemed comfortable in producing work in silver standards common to other countries.

Regards, Tom

[silverport]

Hello wcommander

I’m very lucky that you’ve got my notice so quick!

It wasn't any problem in Germany, to produce, and then after use another alloy as usual!

If this is requested, or necessary, every producer who has got there with a positive commercial result, in reputation, or in cash as well, made it possible.

In General: After 1 January 1888 was in Germany the responsibility there fore by every producer, to sign correct. Controls there fore were the competitor’s; and the market itself.

The minimum German alloy which has got the right, to be signed with the official German signs of Crescent and Crown, was 800.

Below this fineness wasn’t forbidden — it had to be signed with the numerals of fineness only — use of Crescent and Crown was in such cases strictly forbidden.

For reason of socio-economic “overhang” from the past = e.g. 12 Lot = 750-1,000 fineness, it wasn’t forbidden to sell. But the “regulations” of the market functioned very quick, and very well indeed.

The German law there fore was published on 16 July 1884, and came in force on 1 January 1888 — the details for the symbols (Crown = Germany; Circle = Sun = Gold [Crown, in a Circle = German Gold Ware]; Crescent = Silver [Crescent and Crown, placed to each other like twins = German Silver Ware]) were published on 7 January 1886.

Every maker had to have an own sign, in conformity of the law from 30 November 1874 (Details of this actually I don’t have).

All of these habit and rules changing basics were discussed in their professional circles; which were founded as successors of the former Guilds.

So, it wasn’t unknown, how to act, to sign, not to sign, … ; find solutions …

One of the solutions was, in relation to his market, that a producer has melt, like in your case an alloy of 835-1,000 fineness, and signed this as 833-1,000 fineness. Because the whole item had to be, including the lower finenesses of the solder is used, of that fineness which was signed.

There was well a permitted level of differences: The whole item molten down was permitted a difference of 5 pro mille; a part, e.g. a handle could have a difference of 8 pro mille. But remember these differences were the minimum = maximum.

In many catalogues, and added commercial letters of the producers to their clients, I’ve read in Archives, or own in my own Archive (from which I’m away now about 5 year, for reason of health), is stated: Could be made in Silver of every fineness. — And some Plated wares factories stated also: Our articles could be made in Silver from every necessary fineness.

It was usual to make also in this detail a »Mischkalkulation« (»mixed calculation«) = more work, or less work, in relation to several basic costs. E.g. a special melting processing for to get a special alloy, then after the costs of different storage and handling, with a possibility of mistakes, was maybe not in relation to the costs for use of more pure silver in making the alloy!

In your case I’m sure, that J. Memmert’s factory had a storage of material of several »Standard« finenesses; e.g. 805-1,000 for final products in 800-1,000; 840-1,000 for 833-1,000; …

It’s e.g. imaginable for me, that your family was befriend or had familiarly relations to other Officials in Berlin, like e.g. Embassy …

It was said that one of the last Portuguese queens was descendant of a German court.

In Germany, then an Empire, were several Kingdoms’, Grand Duchy’s, Duchy’s, Principality’s …

So there were several reason there fore to have friendly relations, familiarly relations, commercial relations …

During a visit in Berlin, your ancestor has maybe made a visit in J. Memmert’s showroom — and made an order.

Later it was sent by train, e.g. to Lisbon — or it was a long stay, so he took this as »Reisebegleitgut« with him back to Lisbon, for a reasonable lower fare as the other form of expedition?

Now let us be imagining the question of fineness:

In Portugal the lowest fineness was »10 dinheiro« = 833.3-1,000. Your ancestor liked to use often these, by him in style very appreciated items. For this reason of daily use he has decided, not to claim for his buy »11 dinheiro« = 916.6-1,000.

Your ancestor was maybe already in France impressed, when he saw a galvanic gilded item — and it was maybe explained to him, that it wasn’t made by the former »amalgamation processing«, poisonous for the workmen! He decided, to get all objects be gilded. Signification for you is: Only the surfaces have a layer of pure Gold, of more or less equal thickness.

For the import to Portugal (if that had happen 1903 — Sorry, earlier details I haven’t) he had to pay per Kilogram = 35,000 »Reis«. But it was maybe imported as »Diplomatic pouch«?

As I understand this: If a Portuguese control of fineness wasn’t especially requested — then it wasn’t done!

So it seems that all was handled by maximum correctness!

I hope to have here with answered a little bit at least one of your questions — Remember: Its normal, that answered questions, be some times basic of new questions.

Kind regards silverport

[wcomander]

One question that comes to mind is, does the J. Memmert Factory still exist? is it possible to know it's history? were they incorporated by someone else? I know there were 2 world wars since then and Germany and Berlin were destroyed , is it possible to find their present address?

[silverport]

Hello wcommander

In short, because I must prepare me for a meeting in our foreigners’ association tomorrow, 80 km up the coast:

I've given the maximum of my actual knowledge - well, as you've now as result, the »925-1000« contributors normally don't stop by the first barrier. But I live here in Exile - and nearly almost of my answers rise out of my brains former stored knowledge.

I will do more research; but I need a little while - my "car" is an »old-timer«; not to speak from the lot of work I've to do before ... My form of contribution in »925-1000« is an additional activity - but maybe also essentials for me?

Actually I know from »Bahner«, one of our famous contributors (but it isn't a secret: There are more, feminine and masculine ones.), that in Berlin has until yet survived only Otto Schneider - today a specialised workshop for restorations of silver.

I will do more research - but from here, be far away, it's difficult without reliable co-operators; at least it need a while. You've now, I think so, got some experience of cooperation.

Thank you for your comprehension!

Please, be happy on this interim result - have a nice evening!

Kind regards silverport

[silverport]

Hello wcommander

Just I've made a break:

http://maps.google.de/maps?hl=de&tab=wl

Type in »maps Search«: Prinzenstrasse 33, Berlin

and click on the "button" »Maps-Suche«

It shows up a possible area of former production place of »J. Memmert« - now it seems to be a corner area of a streets roundabout.

A little bit South-West of there, you could observe a diagonal street:

»Ritterstrasse«

That was one of the famous (!) Silver ware production area of Berlin.

Kind regards silverport

[Bahner]

Hello, Memmert was last listed in the Berlin directory in 1942 (by the way - it is first listed as "G." Memmert, later as "F" or "Fritz" Memmert. Don't know where a "J." could fit in). Adress from 1916 to 1942 was Prinzessinnenstrasse 16 in the Kreuzberg section of Berlin. That area was pretty much scorched earth at the end of the war, no trace of Memmert left. Nothing else is known of the company, no known famous designers, no famous works. Best wishes, Bahner

[wcomander]

Thanks Bahner, maybe they had a tragic end in WWII, I know there is an oven producer/factory called Memmert in Germany, maybe they are somehow related, I'm not sure if this company is in Berlin, I'll try sending them an email, it seams they are a 75 year old company. They started business around the time of the WWII.

[wcomander]

"G" Memmert = Gustav
"F" Memmert = Fritz
"J" Memmert = ???

Probably they were father and Sons I guess!