hamburg spoon maker JBS

[Theoderich]

hamburg maker J.B.S.?

[silverport]

Hello Theoderich

Town marks of Hamburg, in the here shown form of cartouche have start to be in use from about 1828-1829 on. But the here shown, more simplified form of towns port, with the letter of period in ports arc, came in use with the capital letters D = 10 Dec. 1853, E and F = 11 June 1857. These all remained in use until cession of Hamburg Guild in 1865.

In the whole »Schliemann« I haven’t found any registered mark, which fit to here shown »J.B.S.«.

Also in the part of the »Goldarbeiter« (Goldsmith’s), from which some of them were, especially in the period after 1850, also retailer; not only for Jewellery, but also for silver ware. Neither of them fit by their already introduced (but seldom) maker’s mark, or their letters of name.

That’s the same by the »Concession’s«. Neither of the Concession’s fit by their already introduced maker’s mark, or their letters of name. Fabian Stein, who all of this has researched, has mentioned, that there are some of the books of registry of concession's be lost — so it was impossible for him to complete.

The spoon is in an English style, which needs some experience and tools, or dies as well.

The in Hamburg settled cutlery manufactory of A. C. Franck has mentioned in 1903, to have start in 1850 with the production and whole sale of cutlery — were they the original maker of your spoon, and whole seller as well? Maybe imported from England? (Johann Carl Franck got concession nr. 87 on 16 Jan. 1851 for to make silverware. On 17 Nov. 1857 he takes over an »Amt« [master workshop]; which was ceased on 22 Dec. 1864. This »Amt« was financed by J. G. Gutruf.)

The ancestor of Gustav Haegermann’s manufactory, in Burgdorf by Hannover could be the deliverer as well. Already 1821 they’ve start there their workshop. Cutlery was one of their specialities.

On 19 Nov. 1861 Joseph Ernst Wilhelm Haegermann has got in Hamburg the concession nr. 283, as Gold worker. On 2 Oct. 1862 he takes over an »Amt« [master workshop]; which was ceased on 2 Jan. 1865. D and F are the periodic letters of by him with full name HAEGERMANN signed cutlery (in the collection of HMKG).

On 22 Jan. 1864 Johann Heinrich Friedrich Haegermann has got in Hamburg the concession nr. 293, as Gold worker.

Holder of a concession was only the sale to »master workshop« permitted. Instead of this, Gold workers were the direct sale to the public permitted.

I guess that Burgdorf, near Hannover was, similar to Hamburg, also export oriented, and maybe more then Hamburg influenced by stylistic tendencies of England?

Maybe your spoon is a direct import from England — or manufactory made by Haegermann, in Burgdorf?

From Wilckens are existing three different model of spoon with a shell’s finial, model nr. 6, 15 and 91; but details don’t match.

As well don’t match a by Koch & Bergfeld, in Bremen just around 1886 introduced model; their model nr. 5900, an interpretation of a some thing similar English pattern.

Robbe & Berking wasn’t founded — so the questions of your spoon’s origin remain still unsolved?

I don’t know if you would find in »Hüseler« or »Scheffler« some more on J.B.S. — because »Schliemann« was published later, and includes a concordance to these other two guides.

Good luck!

Kind regards silverport

[Theoderich]

I have the same townmark from Friedrich Peters

could JBS be an other Mark from Johann Friedrich Bernhard Sierich?

[silverport]

Hello Theoderich

You ask, if the J.B.S. mark couldn’t be another mark of Johann Friederich Bernhard Sierich?

I think: No!

Because Johann Friederich Bernhard Sierich (Mark in script; in a rectangle, with slightly rounded edges: Sierich) has died on 5 December 1850.

His main working activity was hollowware! A server spoon with a bowl like an gothic style egg, handle in lancets style, later engraved a medallion in »bright cut« on front side finial; and on backside: »Jürgen Eggers 1857«.

A second known server spoon in »MKGH«: Bowl in egg shape; handle flower engraved, in zig-zag-pattern; prick engraving: »Elsche Eggers 1836«.

The in »Schliemann« shown, in 19 century in Hamburg made spoons and ladles are very tame and flat of lancet, spade, spatula, round end and Augsburger threads style only — some of the latter have a shell as finial.

There is only one outstanding sauce ladle shown — some would classify them to be a »Nordic Art Déco style« - made about 100 year earlier by Johann Friederich Nicolassen (1830-1840). Handle is in parts made of Mother of pearl — now in the Klingenmuseum Solingen collection.

Already from thousands of years on are existed “long distance” or international cultural connections — and objects, or at least styles transfers; also artists have moved as well from A to B! Researchers must hold in mind that phenomenon as well.

I think, you must now look first to England; and find there at least a matching timeframe of style — and then after there a maybe-maker as well. Before you maybe look out again, to find a Hamburg silversmith?

Kind regards silverport

[Theoderich]

I think, you must now look first to England; and find there at least a matching timeframe of style — and then after there a maybe-maker as well. Before you maybe look out again, to find a Hamburg silversmith?

Kind regards silverport

I thank You Silverport

There is a very interesting Linkt to a page of english spoons (from a very good friend :-)).
http://silberpunze.piranho.de/Silber/Do ... Part_2.pdf

a similar style you can find in the 1813 (Thomas Barker) or 1829 (Jonathan Hayne).

Bernhard Sierich has worked in this time.

[silverport]

Hello all

Clairvoyants could maybe see a relevant relation? - I'm not be gifted here with!

Is the now added maker's mark of »Sierich« from a spoon? Or maybe taken from hollowware; his primary speciality?

Is it correct, to take "apples" for "plums"?

Also if a spoons style of here shown maker's mark of »Sierich« were similar - the here shown, and maker's mark questioned spoon is from time period "Hamburg, F"!

Or at least 25 to 29 years later as well - I don't see by these facts any reliable (!) match. Other wise it's guess only - or speculation without reliable facts.

»Sierich« took over his fathers workshop on 14.9.1830 - the here in addition shown maker's mark (in script) is actually the only known one of him. And he died on 5.12.1850; without then after been a »widow workshop«.

The time period "Hamburg, F" ended in 1865 = about 13 to 14 year later as his dead as well!

How could a dead one sign with a mark which doesn’t belong to him?

All remain miraculous - also if here now would be delivered much more tons of »Spekulatius«.

I will still wait - until sounded results would be presented here; from research outside of stage!

Kind regards silverport

[silverport]

Hello all

The here in this topic # 47254 shown »Kings Pattern« spoon in question bears Assayer’s mark of Johann Heinrich Jacob Wienicke, with a worn period letter E.

The in http://www.925-1000.com/Fger_hamburg_01.html shown Assayer’s mark of Johann Heinrich Jacob Wienicke with the period letter E aren’t worn, and the form of cartouche is in the upper part a single arch only. The upper part of the F punch has 3 little arches.

The there shown youngest assay example is: H.J.&Co That stand for Johann Heinrich Albrecht Janssen. He took over an »Amt« (master’s workshop) on 22 June 1861; and this »Amt« was ceased on 27 December 1864.

Johann Heinrich Albrecht Janssen speciality was cutlery in »spade« style, with pierced bowls (sugar caster) or blade (tart server), some with additional engravings.

The in this topic # 47254 shown Assay mark with an E are all struck after the shown marks, e.g. as that on the sugar caster: http://www.925-1000.com/hbx_janssen.html

If Johann Heinrich Albrecht Janssen’s sugar caster was assayed on his first day, then the in this topic # 47254 shown »Kings Pattern« spoon couldn’t be assayed before 22 June 1861.

But, if Johann Heinrich Albrecht Janssen sugar caster was assayed on his last day? Then the in this topic # 47254 shown »Kings Pattern« spoon couldn’t be assayed before 27 December 1864.

The conclusion is: All the other examples with a not worn Assay mark with an E are all struck before 22 June 1861; or maybe then after as well?

Kind regards silverport