Birmingham, 1902. Pillbox? Maker ?

EGC · Postby **EGC** » Sat Dec 26, 2009 2:00 pm

Hello all.

We have an object that we think may be a pillbox.

Well the marks for Birmingham 1902 are clear, but we don't find info about the maker. What is doing there this Brevete inscription? Wasn't it fench????

It has also this other mark on the outside:

And other one in the inside. Just the lion and the C for 1902.

Any clue on this marks mess?

Thanks in advance.

EGC · Postby **EGC** » Sat Dec 26, 2009 2:14 pm

Sorry, i forgot to add, we read G.W.H.&CÂº

:-)

larkfield · Postby **larkfield** » Sat Dec 26, 2009 11:47 pm

I don't really know what to make of this item. To me the G.W.H & Co mark is G.W.Harvey & Co. which appears to over stamp another mark. The full set of Birmingham marks normally on the major component, and only two marks on other detachable components is normal
I don't know how big the parts are, it looks like hunter watch case bits remodeled. Brevete I have always been led to understand is Patent. I did know what the letters meant but have forgotten.
Is the screw sterling silver? I suspect not.

Postby **dognose** » Sun Dec 27, 2009 5:05 am

Hi,

I believe the the letters would be 'SDGD', it's another way of describing the more usual 'SGDG' (brevete sans guarantee du gouvernment), similar, I guess, to the English term 'patent pending' as it is a disclaimer that was required to be marked on items as the French government would not guarantee the enforcement of the patent.

Trev.

EGC · Postby **EGC** » Sun Dec 27, 2009 5:38 am

Good morning.

Thanks for the contribution.

Well, so for the moment i've got the impresion that this object has been done in Birmingham, patented there, and may be exported to France with a "Brevete" mark as registered model in france too?

I've found thos old topic viewtopic.php?t=342&highlight=brevete

There says " Brevete, it is akin to 'patent' or 'copyright" about an item with French marks (no picture)

The overwriting of marks looks as a posibility, but the old one was too short, something as ".H&" so, could be an error stamping the mark and had to be done again?

I don't have here the object, it's at work, but the diameter is about 3 cm. and we didn't test the screw, we will tomorrow....

Well more mistery....

Have a nice day :-)

Postby **dognose** » Sun Dec 27, 2009 7:15 am

So, is it English or is it French?

My thoughts are that technically it is English, although its origins are, of course, French.

My reasoning is that if this item had been imported into the UK, at around this date, then it would have subject to having been struck with the appropriate import marks to denote that the item was not of British manufacture. The fact that the item has regular hallmarks, indicates, to me, that a piece of scrap silver, in this case, a French watchcase, has been adapted into a pillbox and thus subject to normal hallmarking regulations.

A fact that backs up the above opinion is the wording of the 1842 Act (5 & 6 Vict.c 47), it states that the laws relating to the customs made it obligatory for foreign gold and silver plate, not being battered, imported into the United Kingdom, to be of legal standard and be duly assayed and marked.

The way I read it, is that the original watchcase was a piece of scrap, then made into the item that we see now. In short it's English.

It would be good to hear the opinions of others.

Trev.

EGC · Postby **EGC** » Sun Dec 27, 2009 7:18 am

:-) I will add something more to this mistery... we have buy it in Bonn, Germany ;-)

It has been travelling for a while, as now it is in Spain... :-)

EGC · Postby **EGC** » Sun Dec 27, 2009 7:41 am

dognose wrote:So, is it English or is it French?

My thoughts are that technically it is English, although its origins are, of course, French.

My reasoning is that if this item had been imported into the UK, at around this date, then it would have subject to having been struck with the appropriate import marks to denote that the item was not of British manufacture. The fact that the item has regular hallmarks, indicates, to me, that a piece of scrap silver, in this case, a French watchcase, has been adapted into a pillbox and thus subject to normal hallmarking regulations.

A fact that backs up the above opinion is the wording of the 1842 Act (5 & 6 Vict.c 47), it states that the laws relating to the customs made it obligatory for foreign gold and silver plate, not being battered, imported into the United Kingdom, to be of legal standard and be duly assayed and marked.

The way I read it, is that the original watchcase was a piece of scrap, then made into the item that we see now. In short it's English.

It would be good to hear the opinions of others.

Trev.

Now thinking about this hypotesis....why doesn't have French Hallmarks and just the "Brevete"?

This makes me feel that has been done in England, and later went to france... but this is just a feeling, i'm not expert...

Postby **dognose** » Sun Dec 27, 2009 9:06 am

In your third photo, the alteration appears to have been made after the stamping. Also there appears to be something stamped under the G.W.H. & Co mark.

Trev.

EGC · Postby **EGC** » Sun Dec 27, 2009 1:34 pm

Thanks Trev.

I had a good time trying to understand your lasty post...now i think i have it.

You mean, something was writen in the place were now is the screw, no?

So, over the "Patent" was a word in semi-circle, and showld read something as "W_ _ _ XS" or "W_ _ _ OCS"

What a mess of marking.

Thanks again :-)

Postby **dognose** » Sun Dec 27, 2009 3:10 pm

Yes, that's how it appears to me.

Trev.

EGC · Postby **EGC** » Sun Dec 27, 2009 4:23 pm

Hello Trev:

Well, now is when i'm getting more confussed if possible....

Lets try, the object went from france to england with the Brevete and may be a maker's mark to england, beig considered as just pieces...

Then it got the Patent mark and the assay mark from Birmingham 1902 (without the F for imported items, used until 1904).

Then, somebody, G.W.Harvey & Co? assembled it, put their mark over (on? sorry) the french one, and modyfied the part were is the screw and so the english Patent mark is showing now incomplete.....

What a work for such a non super important piece....

Thanks again for your help :-) best wishes.

EGC · Postby **EGC** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 9:22 am

Well, just for the record, i have now more ingo about "G W Harvey & Co"

They were making Cigarette case, dish, souvenir spoon, vesta, and i have seen on the net a vesta with same decoration that my "Thing"

They were having 2 marks, one from 1897 to 1898 and other from 1900 to 1909.

The adress was Frederick Street, Birmingham.

The link were i got the info.

http://www.silvermakersmarks.co.uk/Make ... ham-G.html

Greetings.

EGC · Postby **EGC** » Tue Jan 04, 2011 12:15 pm

Hello all.

Well, after a year now i know what is my object!!!

So, it is a Sovereign case, not complete, missing the spring action mechanism for holding the coins.
You can see some pictures in google: http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&q=so ... 33&bih=598

Mistery resolved, i hope this info is useful to somebody else.

Best wishes and happy new year.

Elena

silverport · Postby **silverport** » Tue Jan 04, 2011 5:00 pm

Mystery resolved — Bonn > Spain > Â»Sovereigns caseÂ«

Hello Elena

Many thanks for your intensive private research — and for letting the community know the result!

It has needed a year since our last contact to each other.

This yours behaviour is highly appreciated!

Thank you also for yours best wishes!

We wish you too a Healthy New Year 2011!

Kind regards silverport

www.925-1000.com

Birmingham, 1902. Pillbox? Maker ?

Birmingham, 1902. Pillbox? Maker ?

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