Unclear Maker's Mark Polish? German?

[jackk]

I need help in identifying the following partially rubbed marks. These are on candlesticks that could be either Polish/Lithuanian or German. Maker's mark looks like '...Szrayb...' or ...Jzrayb...
I am afraid I exhausted my resources on Polish silver.





Thank you,
Jack

[JAKJO]

Hi Jackk,

In "Znaki srebra miast polskich" there is a master called Edward Schreider active in Warsaw about 1858-1870. I have seen an object marked "ES.", "Schraider", birdmark, assay mark I.S. (assay master Josef Sosnkowski), 1867, 84, Eagle.

Szrayder seems to be the Jewish/Jiddish version of the German Schraider/Schreider. It will not be unprecedented with such a change between languages; the silversmith family Schwartz/ Szwarce and Stern/ Sztern.

Your candle sticks are in my opinion according to the way they are marked, manufactured before 1852. This does not in my opinion eliminate the possibility that your candlesticks are made by Edward Schreider/ Schraider/Szraider even if the author of "Znaki srebra miast polskich" says that he was active ca 1858-1870. I have found an object by the Warsaw-smith Cyprian Labecki (active 1881-89) marked in 1994.

Hope this helps.

Best regards/JAKJO

[jackk]

Thanks Jakjo, when browsing through my books I spotted Schraider mark, but automatically eliminated it due to the "12" mark, but you may be right and we should not always strictly believe what we read.
I spotted Schraider in two books:
Lileyko "Srebra Warszawskie" lists it as ca. 1860-1880
Boldok "Znaki Srebra as 1858-1870

My belief was that Warsaw's silver marks were carefully and throughout researched. If it is indeed Schraider, who made my candlesticks than, I must say, I am very happy - as it changes the written word. :)

Here is an image of Schraider mark.

[silverport]

Hello to All who are busy to solve «925-1000»-forums question.

Here we are confronted with similar experiences as genealogists in “cross border” research (e.g. culture, religion, state …).

JAKJO’s remark »Schraider/Szrayder seems to be the Jewish/Jiddish version of the German Schraider/Schreider. It will not be unprecedented with such a change between languages; the silversmith family Schwartz/Swarcz and Stern/Sztern« indicate already one important point to hold in mind during research = different languages! jack mentions this also in his here reported research notices.

Warsaw had in her history many foreign citizens — especially artists, craftsmen and commercials. Their place of origin was Northern Europe (e.g. Lithuania, Sweden), Western Europe (e.g. France: Huguenots [Fraget, Norblin …]; German speaking area [Werner …]), South Eastern and Southern Europe (e.g. Italian speaking area) - some of them descendants from past generations on.

1814/15 the Grand Duchy ended and 1815 started «Congress Poland» under Russian sovereign. 1830/32 was a long lasting uprising and resulted in Warsaw town area in an important Emigration (30,000 +). 1840 railway connections e.g. Vienna; official language was then Russian. But an uprising in January 1863 resulted in complete «Russification» = alphabet, calendar (Gregorian > Julian), language, names, registrations, units of measure …

1865 the 1815 Polish “Kingdom” ended and Poland became an integrated western part of Russian Imperia. If not already before 1865 names were assimilated to Polish, now they had to be Russian.

That’s the reason for »Szrayder«, »Swarcz«, »Sztern« … Very seldom were Jewish silversmith’. More often commercials, but these commercials hadn’t political power to order name change.

Under these circumstances it’s actually unsolved that first presented marks in question be “earlier” then 1866. Except »Schraider« had already punches in “Polish” (Polish: e.g. Sz…, …sz…, Cz…, …cz…)

Why by from jackk shown “normal” »Schraider« mark is punched an »1866« mark? Maybe there were provisional regulations? And what kind of mark had »Schraider« later in the completely Russian era?

It would be very helpful to know more from his product range and style to could solve at least many or all questions.

I personally may say »Thank you! « to All for their very informative contributions; produced in many thousands hours of research and compilations.

Regards, silverport

[Thomas]

In according to your posting we have an silver box with the same marks from schraider but then from 1880. This is according too the book "Srebra Warszawskie. The picture of the marks are included.

The date of making is 1880 for sure while the order marks are correct for this date.
So I think the candlesticks are from the date mentioned too.

regards

Thomas