Picture-back Trefid Spoon: Genuine?

[Granmaa]

I recently bought this Trefid spoon, a style that was made in the last half of the 17th century, but seems to be hallmarked for 1765 London and has a picture-back (something I have never seen on a Trefid before). I'd like to hear any opinions at all on any aspect of the spoon. I suspect that it may have been altered at some point; but from what and to what?

Miles


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[dognose]

Hi Miles,

It’s good to have a mystery.
You do see trefids with decorated backs, but I don’t think I’ve ever seen one with a picture, this is of course because nearly all trefids have a rattail (except some West Country examples).
It may be simply that the person that ordered the spoon had a preference for that type of handle, just as some today have desire for say, Art Deco design.
I have seen the squirrel sitting on the oak stump before and often these pictures have a political message. I wondered what that might be, it may possibly be something to do with the signing of ‘The Treaty of Paris’ whereas we were finally at peace with France, the Cabinet were very much against signing it, but when it went before Parliament it was passed with a large majority. This decision was very popular with the public, who were tired of war, but I believe it led to the resignation of most of the Cabinet.
The oak would be the symbol of England, the dead wood (the Cabinet and war)has been cut out, the new growth is hope for the future, and the squirrel representing the people, is now well fed.
Very much speculation I know.
What is the length of the spoon?

Regards Trev.
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[Granmaa]

Hi Trev,

It's a table spoon at 19.5cm (7 5/8").

Two things confuse me here:

1. Why there are only two marks; I can't even find traces of the others. However, there is a ghost mark beneath the lion which I'm trying to make out.

2. The finial is very thick and has that central ridge which makes it look like a converted Hanoverian pattern, but the stem is too flat and the wrong shape for that.

I wish I had more experience with trefids, but they're surprisingly hard to find. I wonder if some people had the ends of their trefids filed and rounded to avoid spending money on the new Hanoverian pattern.

Miles
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[georgiansilver]

Hi Miles.
Can I suggest that the handle and the picture back bowl are probably a later marriage. I have seen the squirrel before on spoons of a later time.......I too love mysteries.........may pay to check the proportions of the bowl to the handle.....the bowl looks slightly too large for the handle in the pic...or perhaps that is an illusion.
Hope you solve it. Take care friend. Best wishes, Mike.
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[dognose]

Hi Miles and Mike,

I guess that could be the London mark under the Lion Passant, perhaps the marker was distracted! Possibly the makers mark was only very lighty struck and has disappeared over time.
Mike could well be right about the possibility of a marriage, but what are the chances that someone had a Picture back table spoon (scarce) with a broken handle and a 1765 Trefid (very rare) with a damaged bowl, it seems an unlikely combination to have, let alone to use , but then again, if original, this is a most unusual spoon.
The stems on late 17th Century Trefids are quite flat as are the ends, I don't think its possible to make a Trefid into a Hanoverian, but I think a silversmih could make a Hanoverian into a Trefid without too much trouble.

Regards Trev.
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[Granmaa]

Does the lion seem odd to anyone else? The tail should have two bends in it surely. I'm beginning to think it may be a foreign fake.

Miles
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[Tongtwister]

Hi,

For what its worth, I agree with Ganmaa - that Lion looks dreadful - and like "georgiansilver" I also think the proprtions are wrong - has the smell of a fake to me!
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