The Price of Silver in 1811

[dognose]

Noted in a Ready Reckoner dated 1811:

The Value of Gold and Silver

A Grain of Gold about 2 Pence
A Pennyweight about 4 Shillings
An Ounce £4

A Grain of Silver about half a Farthing
A Pennyweight 3 Pence
An Ounce 5 shillings.

With Silver getting ever closer to £10 per Ounce, It saddens me to think of how much fine Sterling will end up in the melting pot.

Trev.
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[SilverSurfer]

Hi, just came across this post. Yes, just think of all the collectible silver that disappeared "into the pot" during the Bunkie Hunt silver run a few decades ago. Unfortunately, I think we're setting up for a repeat in the near future. Not from someone trying to "corner the market" (though I believe there was a lot more to the previous silver run than just the Hunt brothers), but this time due to the overheated expansion of the money supply and resultant inflation, unfortunately paralleling an economic downturn (i.e., "stagflation"). There is also the consideration of large financial institutions having suppressed the price of silver through years of shorting on the COMEX and LME, and possibly they may finally be forced to cover due to world demand versus limited supply and small inventories. Note that for centuries in Europe and America, the relative value of gold to silver by weight was fifteen to one. It is now nearly fifty to one, and there is a lot more gold by weight in inventories than there is silver. Note that in the last big gold and silver spikes in the early 80s, though at slightly different times, the ratio of peak gold (about $850/oz.) to peak silver (about $50/oz.) was a more historically realistic seventeen to one. That ratio on gold today (approx. $970/oz.) would yield a silver price of about $57/oz., or nearly three times today's silver price. Whatever the cause of the recent price rise, I fear another round of family silver going to the bullion dealers for scrap value. I hope to rescue what little I can, assuming that I can keep my financial nose above water.

SS
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[kerangoumar]

outside toronto there is a large smelter. when the hunt brothers did their dirty, people went into antique shops, bought up all sorts of silver that had been priced years before, and took it there. the owner actually managed to save a number of historically important pieces. one of my friends had a high-quality shop and he was nearly cleaned out.
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[SilverSurfer]

Well, it seems the trigger is being pulled with respect to gold:

http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Sa ... llers.aspx

How far behind will silver be? At a historically more usual 15:1 value by weight, silver would currently be about $67 per troy ounce instead of the actual price of about $20. If and when silver closes in on the historical ratio, there should be an equivalent scramble to turn the inheritance from granny and grandpa into cash. Heck, I've got some beat coin silver fiddle pattern flatware that I might throw into the pot. But there will assuredly be some historically and aesthetically important pieces that will be, literally, liquidated. Oh, well.

SS
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[byron mac donald]

SS-

That is sad, to lose aesthetics and history for quick cash, as you said "Oh well" I guess it has been this way since the time of man and materials important at any given time. I am just a history buff, and hate to lose any of it in the name of profit.

Regards- Byron
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[SilverSurfer]

Given the parabolic move recently in the price of silver, I thought I might resuscitate this old thread. Once again I wonder and worry about the amount of fine old silver that will get tossed "into the pot" in this excursion. I fear there is much collectible silver owned by heirs who are unaware of, or do not appreciate, the value of the workmanship above the bullion value. "Same as it ever was," I suppose. I fantasize about stationing myself just outside the many gold/silver fairs in which buyers pay a ridiculous discount to even metal market value, I trying to snag aesthetic pieces before they disappear into the void, but realistically I don't think the bulk buyers and local gendarmes would put up with that for long. I wonder whether these commercial buyers skim off the good pieces for resale as-is, or just melt it all down. With this poor economy, it's difficult for many individual collectors to pay even current market bullion value for nice pieces. Sigh.

SS

[JLDoggett]

SilverSurfer, it is indeed sad when people sell for scrap items of artistic or historic value. I have had several clients in need, who brought in silver to scarp in order to pay their tax bills. On one hand it is good that they have items that have escalated in value, and yet to have to sell your silver is never done without remorse. I have even pulled some of my items from inventory (common, fairly modern flatware that has a scrap value higher than asking price) and when silver reaches a certain price they will be shipped to the refiner. I cringe when I hear what some places are paying for peoples goods, it seems that 33% of scrap is an average offer…

[SilverSurfer]

I apologize that I have nothing to offer in a constructive sense, only useless, hand-wringing, "ain't it awful" commentary. I've always collected on a tight budget with an eye out for the wolf at the door, and so concentrated mainly on flatware, snagging most items off on-line auctions, and paying no more than 70% of bullion value for items with no historic or aesthetic appeal, and usually limiting my self to under 2x (or sometimes 3x for something really tasty) scrap value for collectible pieces (remember, this is for flatware). But this was back when silver was going for much less, from around six dollars an ounce up to about eighteen dollars an ounce, at which time I dropped out of the market. So even my collectible pieces are worth more now in scrap value (from a decent recycler) than what I paid for them. I have some items I'd let go without any pangs of conscience (such as Art Deco spoons and homely 20th century German soup ladles), but also have a few modest pieces that well deserve preservation, such as a Mary Matthew serving spoon, an essentially unused Anne Robertson serving spoon (planishing marks still quite visible), a Twentyman sauce ladle, and a matching set of four Robert Keay toddy ladles). All of these were purchased from people who apparently didn't fully comprehend what they had, people who might now likely just sell to a recycler for scrap value. But like I said, I have no constructive suggestions. Sigh.

SS

[buckler]

Price of silver passed £20 per oz in UK
I sold some real junk as scrap to a trader at £20 per oz at Kempton last month
- he was spending thousands .Queues to scrap
All the traders were weighting everything before sale, some tongs would otherwise have sold for more than the asking price as scrap
GOK what its fetching now,
Forecasts of US $250 per oz have been made
Really frightening.
Save my buckles from the vandals

[dognose]

The spot price today of silver was around £27.50 per ounce with the smelters paying around £22.50 per ounce for hallmarked silver from the trade. Just a week or so ago I passed a town centre jeweller who was blatently offering a mere £5 per ounce for British hallmarked silver. Presumably they felt that they need not offer more with what was coming in in through their doors. There will always be people who have heard that silver is fetching a good price and will just walk into any jeweller and accept what is offered.

Perhaps the most strange and interesting aspect of this metoric rise in price is the gold-silver ratio. In the early 1990's the ratio was around 90-1, in 2008 it was around 55-1, today it stands at 33-1 and the gap is closing all the time. It would appear that silver is the new gold.

Trev.

[JLDoggett]

Trev, in 1980 it was a 10:1 ratio here when silver hit 82.00US$ per oz. I am hoping it never reaches that point again.

I gave great thought today as I was checking the silver for the holiday. it was indeed thought provoking when looking at several full services of everyday flatware that are in storage from late relatives. I know several peopel who deal in scrap and have a standing agreement with them to look over what they take in before they ship it to the refiners. The deal is for every oz. I take from their scrap I replace it with 1.1oz. of my scrap. I have managed to save a few very nice pieces this way. The only thing that really gets me is most scrap dealers do not see artistic value, they just toss it on the scale, calculate the value and write a check.

[SilverSurfer]

The deal is for every oz. I take from their scrap I replace it with 1.1oz. of my scrap. I have managed to save a few very nice pieces this way.

Great idea, since I don't know I could afford to pay today's scrap prices for good pieces. I may see whether my local coin dealer would be interested in such an arrangement. Re the ratio of the price of gold to that of silver, the figure for a few hundred years up to the nineteenth century was about 15:1 (may actually be stipulated in the US Coinage Act of 1792). A number of events upset the old relationship, such as the great Comstock strike and the Coinage Act of 1873 that demonitized silver, leading to the William Jennings Bryan "Cross of Gold" speech and (perhaps) Frank L. Baum's "The Wonderful Wizard of Oz". Possibly we're just going back to the old ratio after the excursion to near 100:1. Whatever, I note that many decades ago when US coins were real silver (.900 fine), a dime would buy a loaf of bread and a quarter would buy a gallon of gas. It's still true today for the old silver coins.

SS