TP / RM / GC Thomas Pemberton, Robert Mitchell & George Cook

[dognose]

Hi,

Here we have another example of an unrecorded mark found on a fiddle patern salt spoon with a gilded bowl. Length 9.9 cm. Weight 10 grams. Assayed at London in 1817. There appears to be no sign of an overstrike. But who are the makers?






Photos courtesy of Carey Hill

Three partners and a journeyman's mark surely suggests a large concern.

Thomas Pemberton and Robert Mitchell of Snow Hill, Birmingham, entered a 'TP over RM' mark at the London Assay Office on the 21st July 1813. They, with an unknown third partner, are a possibility for the candidate as the mystery maker. They also entered a similar mark, as watchcase makers, at the Birmingham Assay Office on the 18th December 1816, again without the 'GC' addition. If is is Pemberton and Mitchell, could 'GC' be their London man?

Any other thoughts or suggestions?

Trev.

[buckler]

Nice images Trev.
I wonder if a trawl through all the "C" in a trade directory of the period would find a suitable George C??????? with an appropriate trade ?
That's another few hours work.
Surprising how many unrecorded marks there are from a period where the registers still survive. Could be that Grimwade may have missed this one of course. That cat again ?
Clive

[dognose]

Hi Clive,

Yes, indeed, another possible victim of Arthur's cat!

If this mark is to be identified with the Pemberton/Mitchell partnership, then the mysterious 'GC' would appear to have been a replacement for a 'T.Bishop', as can be seen from this list of dissolved partnerships of the 14th February 1815 that appeared in 'The Tradesman'.



Interesting to note that on the very same day, Peter and William Bateman officially had their parting of the ways (see near the top of the same list).

Regards Trev.

[Lana]

Hello,

I noticed this mark for the first time on the silver makers marks website on Sunday and straight away I thought I knew who it was. Thomas Pemberton, Robert Mitchell and George Cooke.

Here is the link to London Gazette of 13 February 1821 where they disolved the partnership.

http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/17680/pages/402" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Is there anyway that I can prove if my theory is right, please?

I have checked with Goldsmiths and the mark was not registered in London.

ps Dognose- my interest in silver is result of being a family historian so I am not very knowledgeable on silver - what do you mean by 'a journeyman's mark', please?

Kind Regards
Lana

[Lana]

Oh, I forgot to ask about 'The Tradesman' - is there anywhere online that I can find out more information about this publication, please? I was not aware of the partnership with Thomas Bishop.

[dognose]

Hi Lana,

Welcome to the Forum.

Thank you for the excellent information, it's a mystery solved.


London Gazette - Issue 17680 - 13th February 1821

I now feel certain that these three gentlemen were the users of this mark, it's surely too much of a coincidence to be anything else.

An explaination of the Journeyman's or Tally mark can be found here: http://www.925-1000.com/silverglossary5.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The 'Tradesman' magazine can be accessed through Google Books, to bring it to the top of the list, type in Pemberton Mitchell Tradesman.

Thank you again, and I hope this was just the first of many posts that we receive from you.

Regards Trev.

[buckler]

Our thanks to Lana
Very glad to see a geneologist now among us !
The increase in family history research has brought many more internet sources . A lot of which have benefitted silver researchers as well.
Its a very similar discipline and an equally absorbing one. I got involved with family history while researching the Eaton family of silver buckle makers in the Goldsmiths Hall area. And spent three very happy days chasing them through the parish registers at the Northampton County Records Office .

[Lana]

Hi, Trev

Thank you so much for the kind welcome and reply. Thanks also for the links to the description of Tally Mark and for the info on searching google books.

Your website is a fantastic resource and I shall definately keep an eye on it.

Best Wishes
Lana

[Lana]

Our thanks to Lana
Very glad to see a geneologist now among us !
The increase in family history research has brought many more internet sources . A lot of which have benefitted silver researchers as well.
Its a very similar discipline and an equally absorbing one. I got involved with family history while researching the Eaton family of silver buckle makers in the Goldsmiths Hall area. And spent three very happy days chasing them through the parish registers at the Northampton County Records Office .

Thank you so much for the kind welcome. Your user name is interesting. One of the Mitchell boys married an Elizabeth Buckler and her father was Nehemiah Buckler. He was a 'plaster' - the writing is very hard to read but I thought it might be plater as didn't the people in certain trades tend to marry into the same trades? Marriage took place in Birmingham in 1837.

Best Wishes
Lana

[buckler]

Regret "Buckler" is because I collect silver buckles !

No conection with family name . I'm Clive incidentally - the mad one.

There is a livery guild in London of Plaisterers which I suspect is the origin of your word. As you probably know the Georgians in particular got fed up by the end of a long word and often very much abbreviated the last bit
In Birmingham I doubt if the guilds were as powerful as they were in London until around 1800 and he probably had a totally different occupation
Clive

[AngelEyes]

Hi All,

I noticed that Lana wanted to know what a Journeyman's mark is: I apologize if someone has already told her..

It is someone who has completed their apprenticeship and fully educated in a trade, to become a master they had to submit a master work piece to a guild for evaluation.

Thomas Pemberton and Robert Mitchell were also in partnership with a James Allport from New York, America.. it appears that the partnership was either a three or four way thing. With the two mentioned above, and with George Ellis Cooke, Thomas Bishop and James Allport.
It appears they did not only deal with silver, but many other things as glass buttons etc.

Robert Mitchell.... became Robert Mitchell and Co. when he started it is unclear, but he is noted in the Wrightson's directory of 1835 at 24 Frederick Street Hockley Birmingham.

Best wishes to all

[dognose]

Hi AngelEyes,

Welcome to the Forum.

Hopefully the above post will be the first of many.

Regards Trev.