Very old armoral plate : possibly 1570?

s777 · Post by **s777** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 7:06 am

Hello, I have very old armoral plate - closest mark I have found is an 1570 makers mark... Also I still not sure. Will appriciate help to identify, even date...

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fatso · Post by **fatso** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 9:55 am

Fantastic plate. I make it London 1583.
Try and investigate the armorial shield as the plate
would not be a property of some beggar but a person
of high standing in Tudor England.
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kerangoumar · Post by **kerangoumar** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 11:12 am

the armorial belongs to the duchy of Brittany; the motto belonged to Anne of Brittany
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s777 · Post by **s777** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 11:20 am

I am very thankfull for contribution. I have not posted the picture of the plate (its arround 1kg!) - but on the back side you may find letters:
R.D.F.U.W.
Lets say I found zero information on the web about that letters - someone may uncover that?
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fatso · Post by **fatso** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 11:42 am

The question is: is this plate pattern old enough to hark back to 1583?
I have based myself on the distinct shape of the letter F as recorded
in Bradbury's Book of Hallmarks. Then I have had a look in the Lyle Antiques & Their values(1988)- but no plate of that ancient age reported there, the oldest being some 260 yrs old. I have another book of ancient english silver somewhere- but I cannot find it!
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s777 · Post by **s777** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 12:08 pm

The closest mark (and only one, close to that 'F') - I have found in 'Old solver' by B. Wyller... F shape is simply the same. Also It looks like I see some kind of round crown over the 'F'...
I am absolutely sure - this is VERY old plate, you know - forget that hallmarks, you can see the time impact on the material.
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Post by **admin** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 12:08 pm

The form is mid 18th century and most likely continental in origin. S777, are you absolutely sure that it is silver. Internet pictures often make it hard to tell the difference between silver & pewter, but there is a certain heaviness to the piece that makes me feel pewter is a possibility.

Regards, Tom
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s777 · Post by **s777** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 12:22 pm

I cant be absolutely sure. Plate is very used - I cant remove the dust from thousands of scraches (you can see that on the macro..) - it make a feel of low quality silver. Relatively thick plate. Also material is pretty bright. I may try to calculate relative weight of material - but maybe hallmarks are faster way descover. Thanks, D.
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Post by **2209patrick** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 5:40 pm

Another similar crowned F mark was used in Switzerland as a quality mark for pewter.

Pat.
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kerangoumar · Post by **kerangoumar** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 6:27 pm

if the arms are from the Duchy of Brittany and the motto that of Anne, I doubt they would appear on a pewter plate.

Silver would have been the metal of choice for the exalted; high-status tableware, however, was plain, round, with high sides and not a lip but a thickened rim - rather more bowl-like. If you look at images from 16thC books of hours you will see how basic the objects were, even for royal banquets.
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s777 · Post by **s777** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 6:36 pm

Simular shape, you right - also proprtions are not the same... Also The coat of arms is probably related to the duchy of brittany.
Look what I found:
"On the lintel of the two doors are ermines passant, and the motto of the Dukes of Brittany, "Ã€ ma vie," and towards the south are the remains of a whole cornice of ermines, running through the rings of a long scroll inscribed with "Ã€ ma vie." This motto was first taken by Duke John IV. (who instituted the order of the Ermine) to imply that he had conquered Brittany, and would maintain it, even at the cost of his life, "Ã ma vie.".
-by Fanny Bury Palliser
Also I cant see simular pewter marks - I just posted question to the pewter society. Thank you.
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Post by **admin** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 6:57 pm

I've just read that France also used a quality mark of a "crowned F" for fine pewter, do not know what forms the mark takes. Not sure which pewter organization you've contacted, but here is an inquiry email
enquiries@pewtersociety.org
Please let us know what you learn about the piece.

if the arms are from the Duchy of Brittany and the motto that of Anne, I doubt they would appear on a pewter plate.

Let's not forget, no matter how grand a household, the stable hands and scullery maids were not eating off of silver, nor pewter for the matter, they were probably lucky to get a wooden bowl, but somewhere up the ladder there were folks within the household that rated a pewter plate.

Regards, Tom
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kerangoumar · Post by **kerangoumar** » Fri Apr 18, 2008 4:15 pm

Tom - you're right of course- sometimes my mental shorthand gets me into trouble . . . every metal item belonging to a great household was identified in some way by monogram or crest, with or without any other form of ID. I wonder, though, about the one-kilo plate being used for food - more likely to hold a number of things - apples? etc - in a pantry or larder.
H
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larkfield · Post by **larkfield** » Fri Apr 18, 2008 8:59 pm

Didn't Paris use crowned letters on silver which included a crowned F in the mid to late 18th century? although I have no idea what purity France used in those days.
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