Meaning of Dublin Star?

[SilverSurfer]

Having just purchased an Irish sterling soup ladle (John Pittar, 1794), I'm interested in the finial engraving that is variously called a Dublin star or Irish star. It is a starburst pattern of six or more commonly eight points that attends a fair amount of Irish flatware. It impresses me as some sort of national emblem or political statement, but my admittedly weak search fu has so far failed to identify an explanation. Might someone be able to shed some light on this? TIA!

[SilverSurfer]

No takers? Bueller?

[Aguest]

Seen on Irish coins, early medieval Irish coins:



But if we go back even further, we see a star on the coins of Julius Caesar:



"The star symbol associated with Julius Caesar is the Sidus Iulium, also known as Caesar's Comet or the Julian Star. It was a comet that appeared in 44 BC, and was seen as a sign of Caesar's deification."

From a website that asks the question "Did the Roman Empire invade Ireland?"

"Lambay Island lies just off the coast of Dublin, where the burials of Romano-Briton warriors dated to the 1st century CE were discovered in 1927. Among the remains were five Romano-British brooches, scabbard mounds, a bronze finger ring, an iron mirror, a broken Iron sword, and a torc, a popular Romano-British neck ring.

It has been suggested that the deceased were Romanized Britons, possibly of the Brigantes tribe. Due to Ptolemy’s map of the British Isles from the 2nd century, there is evidence that the Brigantes most likely lived in both Northern Britain and southeast Ireland during this time.

Ptolemy mentioned that ‘Lismoy’ (later Lambay) was uninhabited at this time. However with this new evidence, scholars can assume that Ptolemy’s source material was outdated and that Romano-Britons were living on the island from as early as the late 1st century.

Recently, items discovered at the coastal site of Drumanagh just north of Dublin have made scholars believe that the Romans could have been there during their military campaigns of the 1st and 2nd centuries, using the coast as a beachhead."

The star on Irish Silver might have something to do with the influence of the Roman Empire on Ireland?

[Aguest]

8-Pointed Star In Ireland = "Brunswick Star commonly used on police and military uniforms all across the former British Empire. It was introduced when the King of Hannover also became the King of Great Britain and King of Ireland; after Queen Anne (the last Stuart) died he was her closest legitimate Protestant relative."

"George I became King of Great Britain and Ireland in 1714 after inheriting the throne from Queen Anne.
George I was the first Hanoverian monarch of Great Britain.
How did George I become king?
The Act of Settlement in 1701 made George's mother, Sophia, heiress to the throne if Anne and William III died without children.
Sophia died in quick succession to Anne, making George King.
The Act of Settlement established a Protestant succession and removed Roman Catholics from the line of succession ."

Maybe the 8-pointed star was an early symbol of unity between Great Britain and Ireland?
Or Maybe the 8-pointed star was just a symbol of Ireland and only Ireland?

(it's a good question & I had always wondered this after reading the sugar tong website and looking at all the Irish examples)

[SilverSurfer]

Sorry about this late reply, was out of town for a while. Thank you for the responses. While they have shed light on the question, I still have a suspicion that there might be more of an explanation to support the frequency with which this star (both six and eight pointed) appears on Georgian period Irish flatware, and also suspect it may represent more a matter of independence from, rather than unity with, the British. Anyway, it's an impressive symbol, IMHO, no matter what it really means. It supports my admiration for the quality of much of Irish silver work of that time.

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[Argentum2]

It may possibly refer to the Order of St. Patrick founded in 1783.
Several newly appointed knights gave commissions for silver around the time of their appointments. It bears a a reference to the badge of the order.

[SilverSurfer]

Thank you, Argentum2. Yes, the flatware star does look perhaps like a simplified form of some badges of that order. The date of the spoons (ca.1790) also seems to correspond. So the Order of St. Patrick is a definite maybe!

My current interest in this motif led me to purchase the five teaspoons below, approx. 14 cm long and 14 grams each.



Three matching spoons showing the same star pattern are marked for the Irish Maker JP (no pellet), John Power, I believe. One shorter, non-matching spoon has a rubbed maker's mark that may be JP. Another shorter, non-matching spoon has no maker's mark, but has the same, simpler star as the preceding spoon. All five spoons have small and well done matching crests of a dog's head below "DENIQUE COELUM", for which I've encountered different translations. Two of the popular ones are "and then the sky" and "finally heaven". As a dog person, I favor the second, perhaps a someone's remembrance of a lost, faithful canine?

[Sasropakis]

The dog's head crest and the motto Denique Coelum is identified by Fairbairn's Book of Crests to Melville family (apparently different branches with various spellings but several have used dog's head as crest). They seem to be from Scotland but maybe some had an Irish connection. See: https://archive.org/details/fairbairnsb ... ew=theater

Regarding the star I doubt it's a direct reference to the Order of St. Patrick. The star of the order has eight points and would have been engraved properly if the person ordering silver items was a member of the order. Of course it's possible that some members of the order had a proper star in their cutlery and then some non-members wanted to imitate that with a slightly different star and it became a fashion. But that's just speculation.

[SilverSurfer]

Thank you, Sasropakis, for your identification of the Melville family. I have Fairbairn's book, but didn't look it up as my bookcase is currently protected by a number of storage boxes, and I have been unsuccessful in the past in locating a family crest needle in the Fairbairn haystack.

Yes, the Irish flatware star pattern usually has eight points, the few six point examples I've seen are generally on smaller finials as on my teaspoons above, perhaps due to the limited real estate available, or maybe just to effect a fashionable motif without understanding its source, as you indicate.

I note that in the larger star examples there is often an engraved oval in the center with four indentations within that are asymmetrical in their shape and placement. Given the care exercised in the starburst rays, I have to assume this asymmetry is intentional, which makes me think perhaps some stellar constellation is being replicated. Just a SWAG. Given the difficulty and uncertainty in simply identifying the general star source, I suppose further deciphering its internals is a bridge too far. In any event, thanks again to all who responded, and TIA for any further info.

[Aguest]

:::: This thread helped me recently with a sterling silver box with an 8-pointed star on it. ::::::::

:::: As far as I can tell, the 8-pointed star hallmarks appear around 1760 on Irish silver, and the 8-pointed star (or 6-pointed star) is not seen on early 18th century Irish silver, does anyone know how early the Star tends to appear on Irish silver? ::::::::::::

[SilverSurfer]

Yes, this star emblem seems to appear only on later 18th century Irish silver work. I have seen it only on flatware so far, would like to see a pic of your box so adorned. I have not seen the star on any fiddle pattern flatware, so it seems that its popularity faded prior to around 1800.

[SilverSurfer]

While on this kick I came across two Brit spoons that might be employing the Celtic star motif, or just as likely are simply using a basic sunburst theme without reference to the Irish model. English and Scottish examples below.

[SilverSurfer]

[SilverSurfer]

Further research hasn't been fruitful. I did uncover the Reddit conversation linked below that essentially mirrors the discussion here. I'm still puzzled by the larger, more detailed Irish flatware representations that show four somewhat asymmetric points in the center of the motif, can't shake the suspicion that these represent some celestial pattern as yet undiscovered.

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