Mark for foreign objects?

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GiulyF
Posts: 165
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2023 7:37 am

Mark for foreign objects?

Post by GiulyF »

Hy all,
I ahve some difficulties to recognize this hallmark punched on a tastevin, could be the one that marked the foreign object?
I'm not sure, because this was in force from 1819 to 1838, when the Minerva came into use from 1838, and we have both on the tastevin, see the images..

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Thanks to anyone that can give me a hand
GiulyF
Posts: 165
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2023 7:37 am

Re: Mark for foreign objects?

Post by GiulyF »

Any suggestion about it?
anikopol
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Re: Mark for foreign objects?

Post by anikopol »

Hi GiulyF,

According to me, the 3rd mark punched closed to the French Minerva and the French marker's mark does not look like a French mark.

Considering that, it could possibly be a European mark in relation with imported objects or with control of silver purity.

It is just an opinion, not very precise unfortunatly, but I hope you could go further in your inquiry !
GiulyF
Posts: 165
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2023 7:37 am

Re: Mark for foreign objects?

Post by GiulyF »

anikopol wrote: Mon Mar 13, 2023 5:52 pm Hi GiulyF,

According to me, the 3rd mark punched closed to the French Minerva and the French marker's mark does not look like a French mark.

Considering that, it could possibly be a European mark in relation with imported objects or with control of silver purity.

It is just an opinion, not very precise unfortunatly, but I hope you could go further in your inquiry !
Dear Anikpol thank you for the help, although the lozengue mark seems very French I begin to doubt that the silversmith is French too. Maybe it was made somewhere else, although I feel it isn't and it's more likely to be an artful forgery.
JayT
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Posts: 933
Joined: Thu Feb 18, 2010 1:45 pm

Re: Mark for foreign objects?

Post by JayT »

Hello
The last time you posted this item, it was lost when there were upgrades to the platform, so information was lost.

Let me state again that in my opinion this tastevin is a fake. I’ve mentioned the reasons why: a damaged silver standard punch and now we see the punch isn’t placed on the rim near the handle as it should be. Also the purported maker’s mark is relatively large. The maker JP with an anchor as symbol doesn’t occur in the Arminjon dictionary of Paris marks 1798-1875.

I don’t know where this item was manufactured, but it was made to lead the buyer to believe that it is an antique French tastevin.

Perhaps others can suggest alternatives to you, but to me this tastevin is not authentic.
Regards.
GiulyF
Posts: 165
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2023 7:37 am

Re: Mark for foreign objects?

Post by GiulyF »

JayT wrote: Tue Mar 14, 2023 10:51 am Hello
The last time you posted this item, it was lost when there were upgrades to the platform, so information was lost.

Let me state again that in my opinion this tastevin is a fake. I’ve mentioned the reasons why: a damaged silver standard punch and now we see the punch isn’t placed on the rim near the handle as it should be. Also the purported maker’s mark is relatively large. The maker JP with an anchor as symbol doesn’t occur in the Arminjon dictionary of Paris marks 1798-1875.

I don’t know where this item was manufactured, but it was made to lead the buyer to believe that it is an antique French tastevin.

Perhaps others can suggest alternatives to you, but to me this tastevin is not authentic.
Regards.
Dear JayT many thanks for all the precious information you give me, I didn't know the exact point where the Minerva mark should be punched on the artifact, you enrich me even if you once again reiterate that this piece of mine is fake :-P
JayT
contributor
Posts: 933
Joined: Thu Feb 18, 2010 1:45 pm

Re: Mark for foreign objects?

Post by JayT »

You're welcome.

As you seem particularly interested in tastevins, it is good to have some methods to detect authenticity problems. These items are widely faked.

Regards.
GiulyF
Posts: 165
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2023 7:37 am

Re: Mark for foreign objects?

Post by GiulyF »

JayT wrote: Tue Mar 14, 2023 1:04 pm You're welcome.

As you seem particularly interested in tastevins, it is good to have some methods to detect authenticity problems. These items are widely faked.

Regards.
Dear JayT thank you for your kindnesses and knowledge, maybe you could also let me know what you think about another artifact, I just made a post about it.

Thank you if you want to take a look at it!
blakstone
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Posts: 877
Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2006 3:05 am

Re: Mark for foreign objects?

Post by blakstone »

This one was difficult and took a collaborative effort, but after some research I believe your tastevin to be authentic.

A collector of my acquantance recognized this maker’s mark as one which regularly appears on tastevins, and he had the fortune to recently acquire one. He was able to determine that it was not Parisian: the different in the Minerva mark was for the assay office in Clermont-Ferrand, department Puy-de-Dome. Neither of us had a copy of Claude-Gerard Cassan’s Les Orfevres de l'Auvergne, but the collector reached out to a library which was able to supply images from that reference. There, the “JB + anchor” maker’s mark is identified there as that of J.B. Peyrend of Clermont-Ferrand.

Image

There was no other information on Peyrend, other than that, as his mark was the 75th on the insculpation plate, it probably was registered towards the middle of the 19th century. Cassan also records the unidentified female profile mark as appearing on other pieces from Clermont-Ferrand, and notes that there is no official documentation of what precisely this mark was. However, its appearance on Clermont-Ferrand pieces by other makers of the time does vouch for the authenticity of your piece.

An internet search for “J.B. Peyrend” turns up many tastevins by him which, added to those where his mark is unidentified, suggests that he was a reasonably prolific maker of them. After some digging in the Puy-de-Dome civil archives, I was able to find more biographical information.

Francois Xavier Jean Baptiste Peyrend

Born: 11 Mar 1802, Clermont-Ferrand, Puy de Dome, son of Louis Peyrend and ?Vincente Porte
Married: 27 Jul 1836, Fanie Caroline Miaille (1821 - 1911)
Died: 2 Apr 1883, Issoire, Puy-de-Dome

He was a third-generation silversmith, son of Louis Peyrend (1776 - 1833) and grandson of Antoine Peyrend (1737-1822), both silversmiths (and both of whom have marks illustrated in Cassan). He was almost certainly of illegitimate birth and/or possibly adopted; there is no record for his birth in the civil registers, there is no mother listed on his marriage record (where his birthdate is recorded), and his father is listed as a bachelor on his own death record. His mother’s name is given as “Vincente Porte” on his death record, but as it does not appear anywhere else, it may not be accurate.

Presumably taught by and succeeding his father, he was working in Clermont-Ferrand by 1836, but moved to Issoire (in the same department) some time after 1839 but before 1859. He was succeeded by his son Joseph Peyrend (1839-1897); as he shared the initials in his father’s mark, he may well have used it himself after his father’s death. Joseph was, in turn, succeeded by his widow Hortense Anne Marie Jalady. An internet search reveals several turn-of-the-century lithographed advertising cards of Vve. Peyrend in Issoire. She sold the business on 12 Aug 1912 to Parisian watchmaker Joseph Fabien-Jonas Debiol.

I hope this documentation will settle the authenticity of your tastevin and identity of its maker, and I thank you for providing such an exciting challenge!
GiulyF
Posts: 165
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2023 7:37 am

Re: Mark for foreign objects?

Post by GiulyF »

blakstone wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 4:44 pm This one was difficult and took a collaborative effort, but after some research I believe your tastevin to be authentic.

A collector of my acquantance recognized this maker’s mark as one which regularly appears on tastevins, and he had the fortune to recently acquire one. He was able to determine that it was not Parisian: the different in the Minerva mark was for the assay office in Clermont-Ferrand, department Puy-de-Dome. Neither of us had a copy of Claude-Gerard Cassan’s Les Orfevres de l'Auvergne, but the collector reached out to a library which was able to supply images from that reference. There, the “JB + anchor” maker’s mark is identified there as that of J.B. Peyrend of Clermont-Ferrand.

Image

There was no other information on Peyrend, other than that, as his mark was the 75th on the insculpation plate, it probably was registered towards the middle of the 19th century. Cassan also records the unidentified female profile mark as appearing on other pieces from Clermont-Ferrand, and notes that there is no official documentation of what precisely this mark was. However, its appearance on Clermont-Ferrand pieces by other makers of the time does vouch for the authenticity of your piece.

An internet search for “J.B. Peyrend” turns up many tastevins by him which, added to those where his mark is unidentified, suggests that he was a reasonably prolific maker of them. After some digging in the Puy-de-Dome civil archives, I was able to find more biographical information.

Francois Xavier Jean Baptiste Peyrend

Born: 11 Mar 1802, Clermont-Ferrand, Puy de Dome, son of Louis Peyrend and ?Vincente Porte
Married: 27 Jul 1836, Fanie Caroline Miaille (1821 - 1911)
Died: 2 Apr 1883, Issoire, Puy-de-Dome

He was a third-generation silversmith, son of Louis Peyrend (1776 - 1833) and grandson of Antoine Peyrend (1737-1822), both silversmiths (and both of whom have marks illustrated in Cassan). He was almost certainly of illegitimate birth and/or possibly adopted; there is no record for his birth in the civil registers, there is no mother listed on his marriage record (where his birthdate is recorded), and his father is listed as a bachelor on his own death record. His mother’s name is given as “Vincente Porte” on his death record, but as it does not appear anywhere else, it may not be accurate.

Presumably taught by and succeeding his father, he was working in Clermont-Ferrand by 1836, but moved to Issoire (in the same department) some time after 1839 but before 1859. He was succeeded by his son Joseph Peyrend (1839-1897); as he shared the initials in his father’s mark, he may well have used it himself after his father’s death. Joseph was, in turn, succeeded by his widow Hortense Anne Marie Jalady. An internet search reveals several turn-of-the-century lithographed advertising cards of Vve. Peyrend in Issoire. She sold the business on 12 Aug 1912 to Parisian watchmaker Joseph Fabien-Jonas Debiol.

I hope this documentation will settle the authenticity of your tastevin and identity of its maker, and I thank you for providing such an exciting challenge!
Dear blakstone, forgive the delay and a very big thank you for this really useful and rare information, in fact I have many tastevins that have this same silversmith's mark and only thanks to you I was able to get to the bottom of the mystery about the mysterious goldsmith. so this tome laude-Gerard Cassan's Les Orfevres de l'Auvergne set the stage for a treasure hunt!
Thank you again, really really helpful
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