Augsburg weinprobierschale

[GiulyF]

Hy all,
I have some difficulties to recognizethe silversmith of this Augsburg vermeil weinprobierschale, 12 F is for? and the initials FP, I can't find the correspondance on the Rosenberg..
Anyone can help me?

[oel]

Hi, the 12.F mark is a later Austro-Hungarian tax mark/ Repunzierungsstempel used 1806/1807. The letter F, I believe to be for the regional assay office Lemburg/Lviv/Lvov in the Ukraine. I am not confinced the townmark is for Augsburg. Let us wait or Theodrich to hop in.

Source; World Hallmarks Volume I, hallmarks of Europe 19th to 21st Centuries William B. Whetstone, Danusia V. Niklewicz, Lindy L. Matula 2nd Edition. page 27, control marks Austro-Hungarian RAO letters 1867-1922.




Peter

[GiulyF]

Hy Peter and many thanks for the helping, I've checked and what you are referring to is the Repunzierung for Brunn, from 1806. So unless it's spurious I think the cup is German from Augsburg, and the silversmith's hallmark is the abraded and barely visible one that could be Hans Jacob Baur?

[GiulyF]

I correct myself, not Hans Jacob Baur but probably Balthasar Haydt? The town mark for Augsburg dov't have the letter under the pine-cone, so it's before 1735, I still don't know what is the mark with the two letters conjoined FP and how to explain the journey of the piece, made in Augsburg in the 17th century and then arrived in the Austro-Hungarian Empire and here remarked.....

I hope I can find an explanation for all of this

[huszas76]

Why do you think, it is Augsburg?
Can you show us some city mark?
Best regards!
Krisztián

[huszas76]

The FR is an Austrian Taxfreistempel 1809/10.

[huszas76]

[oel]

Hy Peter and many thanks for the helping, I've checked and what you are referring to is the Repunzierung for Brunn, from 1806. So unless it's spurious I think the cup is German from Augsburg, and the silversmith's hallmark is the abraded and barely visible one that could be Hans Jacob Baur?

Yes, you are correct assay office Austro-Hungaria period 1806-1866, regional assay office letter F for; Brno/Brünn


Peter.

[GiulyF]

Deae huszaus76, I'm sorry I was pretty sure to have already upoloaded the ikages,of the town mark for Augsburg. here the images.
Is it possible that a later merchant or goldsmith have to remark rhe piece with these marks from the Empire?
Really otherwise I can't explain why such a small piece of little value like this could have lived such a strange story...

[GiulyF]

The FR is an Austrian Taxfreistempel 1809/10.

More to read FR I seem to read FP, nope?

[oel]

Nope, FR= ᖷR in monogram conjoined. As explained and image shown by huszas76
Also see;
https://www.silvercollection.it/austria ... marks.html
Yep, believe it to be Augsburg last quarter 17th century.

Peter.

[AG2012]

Two Austrian Taxfreistempel 1809/10 are both wrong; ether faked at the time to avoid taxation or later fake.
The first (on the left) is completely wrong (FP instead of FR),mark on the right is poorly struck, excentric, its left side is suspicious,too.
Regards

[GiulyF]

Two Austrian Taxfreistempel 1809/10 are both wrong; ether faked at the time to avoid taxation or later fake.
The first (on the left) is completely wrong (FP instead of FR),mark on the right is poorly struck, excentric, its left side is suspicious,too.
Regards

So do you think that is spurious and the manufact an artfully made fake?

[oel]

The FR mark on your tastevin enhanched.

Poorly struck, leg of the R missing, remant of leg visible?
The FR/Freistempesl shown in bookpage.


Can we encounter these Austro-Hugarian tax mark and Austrian freimark as being counterfeit? What do we know about the provenance of your tastevin? Has the tastevin and the marks been examined by an (auctionhouse)expert?
What can we tell about the Ausburg townmark, is it a fake mark? I am not sure. Yes, many tastevins are known to be forged,and having fake marks.



Peter

[GiulyF]

The FR mark on your tastevin enhanched.

Poorly struck, leg of the R missing, remant of leg visible?
The FR/Freistempesl shown in bookpage.


Can we encounter these Austro-Hugarian tax mark and Austrian freimark as being counterfeit? What do we know about the provenance of your tastevin? Has the tastevin and the marks been examined by an (auctionhouse)expert?
What can we tell about the Ausburg townmark, is it a fake mark? I am not sure. Yes, many tastevins are known to be forged,and having fake marks.



Peter

My personal opinion, and knowing the owner and the huge quality and historical collection he has, is that the piece is genuine 17th century from Augsburg, the town mark and the silversmith for Balthasar Haydt seems to be right, and was grossly rebranded later to avoid paying us the taxes owed, the question is why? I believe that getting to the bottom of it is impossible without reconstructing exactly the origin of the artifact over the centuries, I have worked for years in various auction houses and the fact that it comes from one of their sales does not absolutely mean that it is genuine, the market is full of fakes and recognizing them is a difficult task.

[oel]

Thanks for sharing the extra information.
Augsburg in the 17th century was an international trading city;
As of the 13th century Augsburg was a free imperial city. A document from the year 1316 recognizes this imperial immediacy for Augsburg and thus granted Augsburg complete customs, tax and judicial rights.

In the 15th and 16th centuries Augsburg developed into a significant center of trade in Europe, and was home to the Welser and Fugger families who were among the world’s wealthiest and most powerful families for an entire century. The textile trade especially contributed to the rise of Augsburg. The Fuggers founded the first welfare settlement in the world (1516 to 1523), the so-called Fuggerei, which still houses needy citizens of Augsburg today. Emperor Maximilian I held “Reichstag” (parliament) in Augsburg and so created a political stage for himself here.

The 16th and 17th centuries are considered the golden age of Augsburg. During this time bankers of the imperial state financed the emperor, the city was a first-class center for art, and, with the works of silversmiths to printers to scientific equipment Augsburg became known all over the world.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augsburg

Your tastevin has travelled a bit and been through the ages getting some extra marks. The town mark and maker's mark on your tastevin





Balthasar Haydt made (many) tastevins and a google image search shows some made by him.

https://www.google.com/search?q=Balthas ... 3wzdrIoeyM



For comparison;



The description reads

A late 17th century German silver brandy bowl, Augsburg circa 1680 by Balthasar Haydt (1645-1680)

Of shaped oval form with scalloped edge, Marked either side of one handle (Rosenberg 658).

Indeed some of his tastevins show some extra tax marks;



Fake or Fortune? Enjoy your tastevin, it tells quite some story.


Peter.

[GiulyF]

Thanks for sharing the extra information.
Augsburg in the 17th century was an international trading city;
As of the 13th century Augsburg was a free imperial city. A document from the year 1316 recognizes this imperial immediacy for Augsburg and thus granted Augsburg complete customs, tax and judicial rights.

In the 15th and 16th centuries Augsburg developed into a significant center of trade in Europe, and was home to the Welser and Fugger families who were among the world’s wealthiest and most powerful families for an entire century. The textile trade especially contributed to the rise of Augsburg. The Fuggers founded the first welfare settlement in the world (1516 to 1523), the so-called Fuggerei, which still houses needy citizens of Augsburg today. Emperor Maximilian I held “Reichstag” (parliament) in Augsburg and so created a political stage for himself here.

The 16th and 17th centuries are considered the golden age of Augsburg. During this time bankers of the imperial state financed the emperor, the city was a first-class center for art, and, with the works of silversmiths to printers to scientific equipment Augsburg became known all over the world.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augsburg

Your tastevin has travelled a bit and been through the ages getting some extra marks. The town mark and maker's mark on your tastevin





Balthasar Haydt made (many) tastevins and a google image search shows some made by him.

https://www.google.com/search?q=Balthas ... 3wzdrIoeyM



For comparison;



The description reads

A late 17th century German silver brandy bowl, Augsburg circa 1680 by Balthasar Haydt (1645-1680)

Of shaped oval form with scalloped edge, Marked either side of one handle (Rosenberg 658).

Indeed some of his tastevins show some extra tax marks;



Fake or Fortune? Enjoy your tastevin, it tells quite some story.


Peter.

Dear Peter
thanks to you for the additional info, I know that Balthasr Haydt has often been auctioned, who knows if all the pieces attributed to him are genuine or not, there is also a lot of confusion between him, which comes much earlier, and the stamp of Hans Jacob Baur, and even fine auction houses like christie's and sothebys create clutter

(admin edit - see Posting Requirements )

https://purelysilver.info/hans-jakob-baur/
how can Iunderstand if it is one rather than the other? I need to consult Helmut Seling's encyclopedia and I hope it helps me.
In any case I will disturb you again for other similar interesting pieces