A XVIII century looking tray

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amena
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A XVIII century looking tray

Postby amena » Mon Sep 07, 2015 5:15 am

I recently found this little tray in the style of eighteenth-century. It’s definitely hand wrought, and, on the back, the plate has some imperfections that would confirm an old execution.
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You can recognize two wings and an aureole, but it is not a S. Mark lion. In the books that I consulted I found no other mark that can match these. My feeling is that it is an object with fantasy marks of an unknown date. Every opinion will be welcome .
Best regards
Amena

Theoderich
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Re: A XVIII century looking tray

Postby Theoderich » Mon Sep 07, 2015 10:57 am

it is Venice

Theoderich
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Re: A XVIII century looking tray

Postby Theoderich » Mon Sep 07, 2015 10:58 am

Image

amena
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Re: A XVIII century looking tray

Postby amena » Tue Sep 08, 2015 2:58 am

Hi Theo
Thanks for the reply.
the mark that you posted is definitely identical to those on my tray.
Can you tell me the source from which you deduce that this is Venice?
Best
Amena

Theoderich
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Re: A XVIII century looking tray

Postby Theoderich » Tue Sep 08, 2015 1:31 pm

this image is about from 2010
I do not know from which object the picture is

Do you think the hallmarks is a fake?

amena
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Re: A XVIII century looking tray

Postby amena » Wed Sep 09, 2015 4:05 am

Well, not really a fake, since the object is solid silver, but something similar to an artifact of Hanau.
In fact in the period between 1872 and 1935 in Italy it was not compulsory marking the silver, and on the other hand was not forbidden to put their own personal mark on the silver products.
At that time, there were skilled craftsmen who produced items with the ancient techniques and punched with marks mimicking the ancients, as was the custom in Hanau.
The hallmark of Venice was always the Lion of St. Mark in majesty, and over the years has had many forms, but none of those shown on the books that I could see corresponds to those of my tray, and, for the truth, does not seem to a lion.
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It is still interesting that the same mark was found on other pieces and know more about these pieces could shed light on this matter.
Amena

amena
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Re: A XVIII century looking tray

Postby amena » Mon Oct 05, 2015 3:51 am

Sometimes I'm too mistrustful.
The tray is genuine of eighteenth century.
The silversmith is Giovan Battista Croff of Milan.
However I think it is better to doubt than to be disappointed later.
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Gianguido Sambonet ; Gli argenti Milanesi
(Workshop dedicated to) The Holy Spirit
Giovan Battista Croff, son of Domenico and Teresa Giorgetti, born on March 15, 1756. …………………He is goldsmith and silversmith. He’s already active in 1776 ……………………… Giovan Battista Croff opens a shop with the signboard of "Holy Spirit", at the same address of his home in the district of Goldsmiths 3199. It produces beautiful household silverware . His mark is known in two very similar editions. The first mark, found in the older artifacts, is the dove in front. The second one, found on the most recent artifacts , is the dove seen from the side.

Regards
Amena

dognose
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Re: A XVIII century looking tray

Postby dognose » Mon Oct 05, 2015 4:15 am

Hi Amena,

Great sleuthing! And thanks for taking the time to keep us updated with your research, it's a great find.

Trev.

amena
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Re: A XVIII century looking tray

Postby amena » Mon Oct 05, 2015 4:41 am

Actually the merit is not mine, the mark has been recognized by a collector / dealer who I met yesterday in a market. Although I own the Sambonet’s book, I had not thought of consulting it.

Theoderich
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Re: A XVIII century looking tray

Postby Theoderich » Mon Oct 05, 2015 1:14 pm

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Very nice!
then this is probably the other makersmark of Giovan Battista Croff

amena
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Re: A XVIII century looking tray

Postby amena » Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:07 pm

After a long time it seems to me appropriate to return to the suject to add some considerations.
Some time ago I found this coffee pot on a market, and, since I recognized the mark that had posted Teoderich, I bought it.
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To be honest the seller did not say it was a piece of the XVIII century, and sold it at a price appropriate to an old-fashioned object.
Once at home, I looked at it better, and I had a lot of doubts:
In Milan in the 18th century the objects had only the silvermaker''s mark (SAMBONET PAG 7), and here there are two different marks: suspicious.
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The style of the coffee pot is Venetian, not milanese.
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The body of the coffee pot has a vertical welding and is therefore not hammer rised from a single piece, even the spout is welded on.The handle is welded to the body but has fake rivets for embellishment.
These clues and the lack of patina convinced me that this is a much more recent object, probably made in the early twentieth century, and that are fancy marks.
In addition, in these two years I've seen on sale at least five objects with the same mark that is on my tray.
It seems strange to find so many Croff's artifacts and so few of the many other Milanese silversmiths of that time.
I hope that my tray is genuine, but I would not bet, and for sure and I will not buy any other objects with that mark.

Italiansilver
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Re: A XVIII century looking tray

Postby Italiansilver » Tue Oct 17, 2017 6:46 pm

Hi,
the coffing pot is a typical venetian pot.
The first mark is the St.Mark's Lion ( "Leone in moleca") that is a recurrent mark for venetian silver since 1400 up to 1800.
The second mark should be manufacturer mark ... Tonghetti Natale? ... 1811 ... (symbol description:two weight scale into a circle...or it means: double weight scale)
I have only the description not the image...
But the mark is not into a circle...it is oval...
...anyway...
Marks, if genuine, refers to max a late 1800, early 1900, not later
Manufacturing seems not to be 18°century

amena
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Re: A XVIII century looking tray

Postby amena » Wed Oct 18, 2017 9:43 am

Hello italiansilver, a warm welcome to this forum.
Mark in the coffee pot is absolutely clear but it does not look like any of the sketch of the marks "moleca" known that I showed above.
I have more than one hundred photographs of “molecas”, of which I attach some below, but none looks like that mark .
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A pix in the diocese of Padua has on his foot, signed by Gio Antonio Costa D'Asiago, with the date of 1832, a mark with the scales, but it is very different and has the initials AC, and furthermore the moleca was used as hallmark until 1811.
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Even if it was the maker's mark of Tonghetti Natale, there should be the letter T.
All this seems to me somewhat suspicious and makes me think that the marks on the coffee pot are not genuine, whether mimicking Venice’s or Milan’s ones.
This is of course just my opinion
Best regards
Amena

Italiansilver
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Re: A XVIII century looking tray

Postby Italiansilver » Wed Oct 18, 2017 4:31 pm

sure we are just comparing ideas!
And I'm not so expert...just a lover...
In particular I like Venetian 700 style...I'm from Padua...now living in Florence...
The Venetian "cuccuma" is my favorite coffee pot!

coming back to the topic:
1) yes I forgot that Tonghetti should have a T
2) As you are saying there are houndreds of "Leone in moleca"... sincerly I'm totally not able to say if one is a fake or not...
3) Leone in moleca is a mark that you can find beside the regular registered mark, just as a "recall" of the Venetian typical style and origin of the piece (could be from Padua , Venice...) without pretending to make the piece an old piece.
4) There is a period of time in which silversmith was not requested to comply to a particular marking system, so there was some freedom on how mark the object (in this case anyway usually the purity silver content is stamped).

all this to say that your piece could be an early XX century, without be a fake.

Italiansilver
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Re: A XVIII century looking tray

Postby Italiansilver » Wed Oct 18, 2017 4:32 pm

the tray, instead, is a very beautiful item!!!!

amena
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Re: A XVIII century looking tray

Postby amena » Thu Oct 19, 2017 3:19 am

I agree that it is most probably a piece of the early 900 and hence not strictly a fake one.
But when an antique dealer, for example at the "Mercante in fiera" at Parma's fair, claims that it is a genuine Venetian piece of the 18th century ......

amena
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Re: A XVIII century looking tray

Postby amena » Thu Oct 19, 2017 3:26 am

Yes, the tray is a nice item, but my advice is to beware of that mark

Italiansilver
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Re: A XVIII century looking tray

Postby Italiansilver » Fri Jul 03, 2020 4:45 am

I would like to add my contribution to this topic. Unforunately I see that old pictures in the topic aren't more visible.
Anyway...
Surfing the net I've seen this object that confirms amenas'advise "beware of this mark"

The object is pretty nice and from late XIX, early XX (more probably)

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