Who is the maker mark
Who is the maker mark
I attach photos of one piece of a canteen recently acquired. I can see that it is German 800. However I cannot find details of the maker. The mark is a triangle with what seems to be the letter "p" in lowercase. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
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silverport
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»p« is a double struck triangle with a capital »D«
Hello Charles
What you’ve interpreted as a minor »p« is in reality a double struck triangle with a capital »D« - and that stand for: Doublina-Besteckfabrik, Nachf. A. Wieder, Stade, N-Elbe (Doublina Cutlery Factory, Successor A. Wieder, in Stade, North Elbe, Germany).
After Second World War existing several cooperation’s in production and trade between many of the former producer; it could be that your ladle is a product of another factory — and for sale struck with the »Doublina« mark. Because as I know, »Doublina« made only »Plated« products; hence the name.
The style is »Thirties-Fifties« - not »Art deco«!
Kind regards silverport
What you’ve interpreted as a minor »p« is in reality a double struck triangle with a capital »D« - and that stand for: Doublina-Besteckfabrik, Nachf. A. Wieder, Stade, N-Elbe (Doublina Cutlery Factory, Successor A. Wieder, in Stade, North Elbe, Germany).
After Second World War existing several cooperation’s in production and trade between many of the former producer; it could be that your ladle is a product of another factory — and for sale struck with the »Doublina« mark. Because as I know, »Doublina« made only »Plated« products; hence the name.
The style is »Thirties-Fifties« - not »Art deco«!
Kind regards silverport
Hello, Doublina was originally founded in the city of Döbeln in the Saxony region of Germany. That is why it was called"Doublina". The company made silver flatware as well as plated flatware. It was not until 1922 that the company moved to Stade, where it continued production until the 1950ies or 1960ies (possibly a few years longer). Best wishes, Bahner
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silverport
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»Doublina« ladle, produced in »Wirtschaftswunder« period
Hello Charles
Since the decline of the Guild system in Germany, but also already in that time of Guilds, it’s often difficult to fix a correct »date«, or maybe getting at least a »time frame«.
So it is necessary to search for individual indications - but you must be hold in mind also several kinds of general facts.
That could be e.g. the style — with time frame of maybe 10 year only, until a century.
Some marks were registered, and by time and while modernized — especially by economic changes, e.g. of company’s ownership.
Engravings of dates — but these could also be happen tens of years after the buy of that item.
Changes of reason of politics — like e.g. »MADE IN GERMANY« (before First World War until now, with some interruptions) instead of »MADE IN U.S. ZONE« (after 1945 until about 1948-50).
Patent number-indications — also »D.R.G.M.« (Deutsches Reichs-Gebrauchs-Muster) or »D.G.M.« (after 1945).
Maker’s mark cartouche (especially by plated ware for export to France) = from about 1909 on it’s forbidden the use of a lozenge for the maker’s mark.
Changes in behaviour, e.g. table dimension of cutlery for dinner, before Second World War — after that was by almost cutlery producer the dinner dimension only a little bit larger as the former breakfasts version.
…
In your case I wrote: The style is »Thirties-Fifties« - not »Art deco«!
Actually, by lack of documents (catalogues, add’s, …) I could guess only the time frame — but my feeling tends more to the Fifties of Mr. “Cigar” Erhard, Minister of West German Economy, and the »Wirtschaftswunder« (German miracle of Economy; with the rising emigration of the »Gastarbeiter« - Max Frisch wrote an important sentence in his Swiss citizen brain: »Wir brauchten Arbeitskräfte — und es kamen “Menschen”« (»We’ve need work power — and “Humans” arrived«).
»Bahner« could all of this explain much better as I’m — he is »925-1000« contributor with the almost sounded knowledge of West European, especially German flatware and hollowware. But he is so very occupied by important research and assistance activities — that I would advise you, don’t ask him to answer things which you could find out by own research. I’ve since I’m member of »925-1000« my almost first internet connection — actually I answer on almost question by knowledge and contents of my brain only.
So the former history of »Doublina« I haven’t known until yet — I remember the existence of that company from Second World War on. I’m lucky for »Bahner’s« corrections — maybe you as well?!
I know only that mark of a capital D in a triangle — I don’t know any reason for change of their mark to e.g. in a S for Stade. Because Trade marks are an investment, that should be handled with sensibility. If e.g. you’ve a wrap of chocolates from twenty years ago, and you take it as a record to your shopping: The new wrap is in between changed here and there; but you would still state, you’ve buy a similar chocolate with a similar taste as then.
When I saw your first, not illustrated question, my brain said: »Little p in a triangle = impossible in Germany. Maybe it’s a capital D in a triangle. But maybe a capital D in a lozenge = Deppe, Berlin. One second was sufficient, for to “see”.
Döbeln, in Saxony, the Eastern Part of Germany, was one of the German centres of cutlery production. Maybe they’ve changed their former town for reason of not having there sufficient qualified workmen; because all were occupied? They’ve moved in a merely agriculture oriented area. But that wasn’t a socio-economic mistake. In agriculture oriented are living also intelligent and inventive humans.
If it isn’t so — how could it that we are now using e.g. »Arabic« ciphers, flying by plane, communicating by computer, …
It’s normal that from answered questions rise new questions as well.
Have a nice week!
Kind regards silverport
Since the decline of the Guild system in Germany, but also already in that time of Guilds, it’s often difficult to fix a correct »date«, or maybe getting at least a »time frame«.
So it is necessary to search for individual indications - but you must be hold in mind also several kinds of general facts.
That could be e.g. the style — with time frame of maybe 10 year only, until a century.
Some marks were registered, and by time and while modernized — especially by economic changes, e.g. of company’s ownership.
Engravings of dates — but these could also be happen tens of years after the buy of that item.
Changes of reason of politics — like e.g. »MADE IN GERMANY« (before First World War until now, with some interruptions) instead of »MADE IN U.S. ZONE« (after 1945 until about 1948-50).
Patent number-indications — also »D.R.G.M.« (Deutsches Reichs-Gebrauchs-Muster) or »D.G.M.« (after 1945).
Maker’s mark cartouche (especially by plated ware for export to France) = from about 1909 on it’s forbidden the use of a lozenge for the maker’s mark.
Changes in behaviour, e.g. table dimension of cutlery for dinner, before Second World War — after that was by almost cutlery producer the dinner dimension only a little bit larger as the former breakfasts version.
…
In your case I wrote: The style is »Thirties-Fifties« - not »Art deco«!
Actually, by lack of documents (catalogues, add’s, …) I could guess only the time frame — but my feeling tends more to the Fifties of Mr. “Cigar” Erhard, Minister of West German Economy, and the »Wirtschaftswunder« (German miracle of Economy; with the rising emigration of the »Gastarbeiter« - Max Frisch wrote an important sentence in his Swiss citizen brain: »Wir brauchten Arbeitskräfte — und es kamen “Menschen”« (»We’ve need work power — and “Humans” arrived«).
»Bahner« could all of this explain much better as I’m — he is »925-1000« contributor with the almost sounded knowledge of West European, especially German flatware and hollowware. But he is so very occupied by important research and assistance activities — that I would advise you, don’t ask him to answer things which you could find out by own research. I’ve since I’m member of »925-1000« my almost first internet connection — actually I answer on almost question by knowledge and contents of my brain only.
So the former history of »Doublina« I haven’t known until yet — I remember the existence of that company from Second World War on. I’m lucky for »Bahner’s« corrections — maybe you as well?!
I know only that mark of a capital D in a triangle — I don’t know any reason for change of their mark to e.g. in a S for Stade. Because Trade marks are an investment, that should be handled with sensibility. If e.g. you’ve a wrap of chocolates from twenty years ago, and you take it as a record to your shopping: The new wrap is in between changed here and there; but you would still state, you’ve buy a similar chocolate with a similar taste as then.
When I saw your first, not illustrated question, my brain said: »Little p in a triangle = impossible in Germany. Maybe it’s a capital D in a triangle. But maybe a capital D in a lozenge = Deppe, Berlin. One second was sufficient, for to “see”.
Döbeln, in Saxony, the Eastern Part of Germany, was one of the German centres of cutlery production. Maybe they’ve changed their former town for reason of not having there sufficient qualified workmen; because all were occupied? They’ve moved in a merely agriculture oriented area. But that wasn’t a socio-economic mistake. In agriculture oriented are living also intelligent and inventive humans.
If it isn’t so — how could it that we are now using e.g. »Arabic« ciphers, flying by plane, communicating by computer, …
It’s normal that from answered questions rise new questions as well.
Have a nice week!
Kind regards silverport
Hello, the style of the pattern points to the period from the late 1930ies to the 1950ies. As to the exact age - my guess is as good as that of Silverport. Doublina filed bankruptcy in 1955 and was closed shortly after that. As to the mark used on silver cutlery after 1922 - never gave it a thought, thanks for pointing me in that direction. The dictionaries on German flatware marks document only the mark on your piece. So I believe that the mark seen here was used all the way to 1955. Best wishes, Bahner (Silverport - thanks for the flowers)
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silverport
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- Location: Portugal
A document of West Germany’s rise out of the ashes.
Hello Charles
As additional information on style, and cutlery in sale, I like to show you here the main collection of »Doublina’s« German competitors of little to medium market presence, like »Doublina« itself.
The excerpt is taken from a publication, published 1952, for professional retailers, like e.g. jewellery shops …
Main cutlery program from 1952 of Friedrich Wilke, Westig, near Hemer, North Rhine Westphalia, Germany
Main cutlery program from 1952 of Heinrich Rausch, Büderich, North Rhine Westphalia, Germany
If you would look to these two photographs, normally you would maybe state immediately: » My model is similar to Friedrich Wilke’ model nr. 162 — or Heinrich Rausch’ second model from left? «
That’s the way of today judges, in a court case of plagiarism. Today, first impression counts; not bean-counting. But if you really would look on details of your ladle, in relation to competitors’ model — you would really see differences in same style appearance of this »Thierties-Fiftees« style.
With your ladle you’ve a document of West Germany’s rise out of the ashes.
Kind regards silverport
As additional information on style, and cutlery in sale, I like to show you here the main collection of »Doublina’s« German competitors of little to medium market presence, like »Doublina« itself.
The excerpt is taken from a publication, published 1952, for professional retailers, like e.g. jewellery shops …
Main cutlery program from 1952 of Friedrich Wilke, Westig, near Hemer, North Rhine Westphalia, Germany
Main cutlery program from 1952 of Heinrich Rausch, Büderich, North Rhine Westphalia, Germany
If you would look to these two photographs, normally you would maybe state immediately: » My model is similar to Friedrich Wilke’ model nr. 162 — or Heinrich Rausch’ second model from left? «
That’s the way of today judges, in a court case of plagiarism. Today, first impression counts; not bean-counting. But if you really would look on details of your ladle, in relation to competitors’ model — you would really see differences in same style appearance of this »Thierties-Fiftees« style.
With your ladle you’ve a document of West Germany’s rise out of the ashes.
Kind regards silverport
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silverport
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- Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2009 7:18 pm
- Location: Portugal
»Doublina« A. Wieder Succ. Hugo Lehn, Stade, Niederelbe
Hello Charles
The time span of your ladle is, I personally guess post-war of Second World War — but it’s also pre-war possible. During war time, almost of the German factory had to produce war relevant articles — some lost their whole production facility trough bombing destruction. But also after the war, e.g. in Stade the British, claimed to get a lot of the machinery of production; not seldom until the whole. I’ve read a huge amount of documents on this time span of pre-war until post-war.
That resulted in a very interesting situation:
All of the »Siegermächte« got the old machinery — well, some more modern as ever their own former machinery was.
So, the Germans had to activate their inventively brain — result: New machinery, new techniques …
The »Marshall-Plan« helped to finance the restart — the German »Wirtschaftswunder« became reality!
The US-Dollar, long time valuated by 4.20 Deutsche Mark, became less and less a barrier for the German export.
If you close your eyes, and holding your ladle, he is a document of the time span of the »Thirties« to the »Fifties« - and if he were be gifted to talk, he would tell you a lot.
The bankruptcy of »Doublina« could have had e.g. the reason of by the Brits claimed machinery, not sufficient finances for a restart, advanced age of the owners, physical = health problems, loss of their traditionally East German market, after the war not sufficient qualified manpower available …
A German saying is: »Der Erfolg hat viele Väter!« (»Success has many „Fathers“!«). The »Misserfolg« only one!
I don’t know any precise details of ownership of the company; especially not these of their whole life span — here follows the brief notice of »Doublina« address; an excerpt, out of the same source as the just shown pictures. The edition is the second one, and is from 1952 — in a later edition (maybe the fourth?) from 1967 is only shown »Doublina« maker’s mark D, in a triangle. Jewellers were the destination — there fore are there also shown marks of companies, who had stopped their production, or which never more existed in the market.
Here now that address:
Doublina-Besteckfabrik, jetzt: A. Wieder Nachf., Hugo Lehn, Stade/Niederelbe (früher Döbeln i. Sa.).
Translation:
Doublina Cutlery Factory, now: A. Wieder Successor, Hugo Lehn, Stade, Niederelbe (before Döbeln in Saxony).
That show, that one of the former juridical owner was A. Wieder; his or her successor was a Mr. Hugo Lehn.
If you need, for which reason who ever (e.g. genealogy, herency …) more knowledge of details, you must take contact to e.g. the »Handelsregister« (»Commercial Property Registry«) of that area of Stade.
Here is an internet site of the town hall of Stade, and their Economy Department:
http://www.stadt-stade.info/default.cfm?mid=16184" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Here is an internet site of the »Industrie- und Handelskammer Stade für den Elbe-Weser-Raum« (Industry and Commerce Association for the Area of Elbe and Weser):
http://www.stadt-stade.info/default.cfm ... 86#id77241" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
In both cases there are noticed several addresses, and persons for contact; including e-mail-addresses.
General remark on cutlery successor ship: Some models e.g. were successful, some not — if a company closed their commercial activity for which reason who ever, dies of successful model were for sale, and buy by »successor«. That was e.g. the case when GERO Netherlands became bankrupt, and their before buy of the very important traditional German company »Peter Bruckmann & Söhne AG, Heilbronn« became the real victim. Some of their model, and production were buying by »Burgdorfer«, and as well by »Gebr. Reiner«.
As I’ve already mentioned before: It’s normal that from answered questions raise new questions as well.
Kind regards silverport
The time span of your ladle is, I personally guess post-war of Second World War — but it’s also pre-war possible. During war time, almost of the German factory had to produce war relevant articles — some lost their whole production facility trough bombing destruction. But also after the war, e.g. in Stade the British, claimed to get a lot of the machinery of production; not seldom until the whole. I’ve read a huge amount of documents on this time span of pre-war until post-war.
That resulted in a very interesting situation:
All of the »Siegermächte« got the old machinery — well, some more modern as ever their own former machinery was.
So, the Germans had to activate their inventively brain — result: New machinery, new techniques …
The »Marshall-Plan« helped to finance the restart — the German »Wirtschaftswunder« became reality!
The US-Dollar, long time valuated by 4.20 Deutsche Mark, became less and less a barrier for the German export.
If you close your eyes, and holding your ladle, he is a document of the time span of the »Thirties« to the »Fifties« - and if he were be gifted to talk, he would tell you a lot.
The bankruptcy of »Doublina« could have had e.g. the reason of by the Brits claimed machinery, not sufficient finances for a restart, advanced age of the owners, physical = health problems, loss of their traditionally East German market, after the war not sufficient qualified manpower available …
A German saying is: »Der Erfolg hat viele Väter!« (»Success has many „Fathers“!«). The »Misserfolg« only one!
I don’t know any precise details of ownership of the company; especially not these of their whole life span — here follows the brief notice of »Doublina« address; an excerpt, out of the same source as the just shown pictures. The edition is the second one, and is from 1952 — in a later edition (maybe the fourth?) from 1967 is only shown »Doublina« maker’s mark D, in a triangle. Jewellers were the destination — there fore are there also shown marks of companies, who had stopped their production, or which never more existed in the market.
Here now that address:
Doublina-Besteckfabrik, jetzt: A. Wieder Nachf., Hugo Lehn, Stade/Niederelbe (früher Döbeln i. Sa.).
Translation:
Doublina Cutlery Factory, now: A. Wieder Successor, Hugo Lehn, Stade, Niederelbe (before Döbeln in Saxony).
That show, that one of the former juridical owner was A. Wieder; his or her successor was a Mr. Hugo Lehn.
If you need, for which reason who ever (e.g. genealogy, herency …) more knowledge of details, you must take contact to e.g. the »Handelsregister« (»Commercial Property Registry«) of that area of Stade.
Here is an internet site of the town hall of Stade, and their Economy Department:
http://www.stadt-stade.info/default.cfm?mid=16184" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Here is an internet site of the »Industrie- und Handelskammer Stade für den Elbe-Weser-Raum« (Industry and Commerce Association for the Area of Elbe and Weser):
http://www.stadt-stade.info/default.cfm ... 86#id77241" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
In both cases there are noticed several addresses, and persons for contact; including e-mail-addresses.
General remark on cutlery successor ship: Some models e.g. were successful, some not — if a company closed their commercial activity for which reason who ever, dies of successful model were for sale, and buy by »successor«. That was e.g. the case when GERO Netherlands became bankrupt, and their before buy of the very important traditional German company »Peter Bruckmann & Söhne AG, Heilbronn« became the real victim. Some of their model, and production were buying by »Burgdorfer«, and as well by »Gebr. Reiner«.
As I’ve already mentioned before: It’s normal that from answered questions raise new questions as well.
Kind regards silverport
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silverport
- contributor
- Posts: 870
- Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2009 7:18 pm
- Location: Portugal
Strictly said, no one of these forks is for fish
Hello Charles
The lower fork, with her broader “ship” was after the Second World War the then usual »normal« dinner fork — the other one, with the long tines was before the Second World War the then usual »normal« dinner fork.
Fish forks had »normally« always between the tines in their middle, a deeper notch as the other two notches on his right and left side.
And the »etiquette« of dinning, directly after the Second World War, permitted the use of a second fork, if a special »fish knife« wasn’t available — but never the use of a “normal” knife.
So it seems to me, that all these items are a mix between the »Usual« before and after the Second World War.
Silver cutleries were buyings for Generations — maybe a part of these were already bought before the war? And the »modern« forks, but then also with shorter knives, were already bought for the next generation?
Resume: Strictly said, no one of these forks is for fish — except by the »etiquette« of dinning, directly after the Second World War.
Kind regards silverport
The lower fork, with her broader “ship” was after the Second World War the then usual »normal« dinner fork — the other one, with the long tines was before the Second World War the then usual »normal« dinner fork.
Fish forks had »normally« always between the tines in their middle, a deeper notch as the other two notches on his right and left side.
And the »etiquette« of dinning, directly after the Second World War, permitted the use of a second fork, if a special »fish knife« wasn’t available — but never the use of a “normal” knife.
So it seems to me, that all these items are a mix between the »Usual« before and after the Second World War.
Silver cutleries were buyings for Generations — maybe a part of these were already bought before the war? And the »modern« forks, but then also with shorter knives, were already bought for the next generation?
Resume: Strictly said, no one of these forks is for fish — except by the »etiquette« of dinning, directly after the Second World War.
Kind regards silverport
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silverport
- contributor
- Posts: 870
- Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2009 7:18 pm
- Location: Portugal
Forks with broader “ship” and shorter tines are “fish
Hello Charles
If you’ve got also fish knives — then maybe the forks with the broader “ship” and shorter tines are the “fish forks”.
I don’t remember actually any cutlery producer on the globe who made fish forks like these. But you must understand that after the Second World War in Germany the economy was different, as also the lifestyle.
»Doublina« saw maybe a chance to introduce another form of fish fork — or let me say, a »multifunctional« one?
Maybe they haven’t had a machine which could make the middle notch deeper as the other ones?
Kind regards silverport
If you’ve got also fish knives — then maybe the forks with the broader “ship” and shorter tines are the “fish forks”.
I don’t remember actually any cutlery producer on the globe who made fish forks like these. But you must understand that after the Second World War in Germany the economy was different, as also the lifestyle.
»Doublina« saw maybe a chance to introduce another form of fish fork — or let me say, a »multifunctional« one?
Maybe they haven’t had a machine which could make the middle notch deeper as the other ones?
Kind regards silverport
Re: Who is the maker mark
Hello Charles,
I decided to become a member of this forum because I couldn’t find the hallmark of the cutlery I inherited from my parents. They have bought it in Berlin in the 1930ies.
When browsing through the “German Silver Forum” I luckily found your question and the answer already on page two. I own exactly the same silverware and due to your question I am happy now to know what this “D” in a triangle stands for.
It was a good idea to join the forum.
Kind regards,
lupus
I decided to become a member of this forum because I couldn’t find the hallmark of the cutlery I inherited from my parents. They have bought it in Berlin in the 1930ies.
When browsing through the “German Silver Forum” I luckily found your question and the answer already on page two. I own exactly the same silverware and due to your question I am happy now to know what this “D” in a triangle stands for.
It was a good idea to join the forum.
Kind regards,
lupus
Re: Who is the maker mark
We have a set brought back from Germany by my father in law who was in the occupation forces after WWII. It appears the be the same. The hallmark contains the crescent and crown followed by 800 and is preceeded by a triangle with what appears to be a D inside. We are missing some peices and would very like to complete the set. Any sugestion as to sources?
Re: Who is the maker mark
silverport has posted most informative information on the maker. What else would you like to know?
Re: Who is the maker mark
Thanks for the very rapid reply.
Re: Who is the maker mark
If its a D in a triangle, could it not be Doublina, the same as mine?
Re: Who is the maker mark - Doublina?
I have 800 silver German flatware pieces with what seem to look like the Doublina mark with the incised pagent-like shape, but mine are all missing the D inside. Does anyone know if Doublina ever made pieces using the same mark but without the D?