Silver item 17-18th century

PHOTOS REQUIRED - marks + item
Theoderich
contributor
Posts: 1654
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 6:54 am

Re: Silver item 17-18th century

Postby Theoderich » Thu Dec 31, 2020 7:07 am

Qrt.S wrote:
??? Silver? Based on what? "Yes" is not an answer.


I haven't found a single argument in the whole discussion that convinces me that it's not silver.
Everything indicates that it is silver.

Theoderich
contributor
Posts: 1654
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 6:54 am

Re: Silver item 17-18th century

Postby Theoderich » Thu Dec 31, 2020 7:28 am

the makersmark is interesting

it looks like MR, but it also like HR or it is I*R

Qrt.S
contributor
Posts: 3326
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 9:32 am
Location: Helsinki Finland

Re: Silver item 17-18th century

Postby Qrt.S » Thu Dec 31, 2020 7:49 am

OK, nice to have a debate on the door step to 2021.
Let's see what we have for the moment:

Pros:
1.The questioner claims it is 100% silver (impossible claim)
2. Some attendants believe it is silver
3. The object is silver colored (but not all over)
4. "It looks nice"
5. "Everything indicates that it is silver."

Cons:
1. Some attendants are doubtful (could be silver, but?)
2. Completely unidentified unknown marks.
3 Greenish tarnish (not common on silver but on brass)
4. Common utensils like this are usually seldom made of silver
5. Big size, approx. >20 cm/4inc. in height. (if compare to the glazed tiles on the wall)
6. Not a single argument shows any hard evidence of it being silver (only I believe/think...)
7. Partly yellow color (maybe discoloration by artificial light)

Place for you to draw your own conclusions; is it silver or some other metal/alloy?

So wie so, better pictures and measures are needed, agree?

Theoderich
contributor
Posts: 1654
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 6:54 am

Re: Silver item 17-18th century

Postby Theoderich » Thu Dec 31, 2020 8:03 am

Qrt.S wrote:
2. Completely unidentified unknown marks.


for some people this marks are not Completely unidentified

Qrt.S
contributor
Posts: 3326
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 9:32 am
Location: Helsinki Finland

Re: Silver item 17-18th century

Postby Qrt.S » Thu Dec 31, 2020 8:09 am

@Theoderich

Of course there are, e.g. the person who punched the marks, but haven't heard from him....yet ;-)))

Aguest
contributor
Posts: 1177
Joined: Tue Feb 25, 2014 1:26 am

Re: Silver item 17-18th century

Postby Aguest » Thu Dec 31, 2020 6:31 pm

Theoderich is quite advanced in his expertise, so unless he is using sarcasm or joking, his opinion should be respected. ::: If you look at the other hallmark, is there a number "20" woven into the hallmark? :: I think I see the number "20" but I'm not sure :::

oel
co-admin
Posts: 3925
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2007 8:16 pm
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Silver item 17-18th century

Postby oel » Thu Dec 31, 2020 7:05 pm

Indeed:

Image
Peter.

Theoderich
contributor
Posts: 1654
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 6:54 am

Re: Silver item 17-18th century

Postby Theoderich » Thu Dec 31, 2020 7:08 pm

Image

an happy New Year friends :)

oel
co-admin
Posts: 3925
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2007 8:16 pm
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Silver item 17-18th century

Postby oel » Thu Dec 31, 2020 7:13 pm

Thanks Theo, great sleuthing & great result. Which city?

Happy and Healthy 2021

Found it Wschowa:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wschowa

Peter

AG2012
contributor
Posts: 4436
Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2012 9:47 am

Re: Silver item 17-18th century

Postby AG2012 » Thu Dec 31, 2020 7:53 pm

Hi,
Beschau für Fraustadt, Posen-West Prussia
Meistermarke M.R. (not identified).
Happy new year

Image

oel
co-admin
Posts: 3925
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2007 8:16 pm
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Silver item 17-18th century

Postby oel » Thu Dec 31, 2020 8:02 pm

Hi Ag2012, do you know the name of this particular item and where it is or was used for ?
Thanks for al the contributions in the past year and you too a Happy and Healthy 2021.

Peter

Aguest
contributor
Posts: 1177
Joined: Tue Feb 25, 2014 1:26 am

Re: Silver item 17-18th century

Postby Aguest » Thu Dec 31, 2020 10:16 pm

There are very rare instances where sterling silver tarnishes in unexpected ways. ::: I have a goblet that has tarnished into a completely gold color on the outside. ::: Once or twice I have seen that purple color that you just know is the color of silver plate having been tarnished but it turns out to be sterling silver. ::: This is an incredibly rare color for sterling silver (or this might be another purity like 81.3% or 75.0% perhaps?) so this is why the doubt was raised, but Theoderich has given information in the past which has left be astounded as to how he knew certain things, so I respected his opinion and the green color could be one of these very rare instances where the tarnish pattern was imitating another metal, or perhaps this object sat next to something made of bronze so long that some of the bronze colored it green, who knows exactly what happened. :::

Any clue as to the maker? ::::

solo
Posts: 26
Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2018 8:01 am
Location: Ukraine

Re: Silver item 17-18th century

Postby solo » Fri Jan 01, 2021 2:44 am

Theoderich wrote:Image
an happy New Year friends :)

Theoderich, a good specialist and connoisseur of silver!

Theoderich
contributor
Posts: 1654
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 6:54 am

Re: Silver item 17-18th century

Postby Theoderich » Fri Jan 01, 2021 5:27 am

Aguest wrote:
Any clue as to the maker? ::::



I am aware of at least 5 objects with these marks.
I must apologize for not giving the solution earlier, but I found the discussion too amusing to end with facts.

The name of the maker is probably Richter.
I am not sure about the first letter.
I looks like a "M", but on this image it looks also like HM or I*R

If it is I*R, then it was probably Jürgen Richter and/or Johann Richter in this time.

Ref: p.75 Lit:HISTORISCHE MONATSBLÄTTER für die Provinz Posen Jahrg. XIX Posen, Juni/September 1918 Nr. 6/9

oel
co-admin
Posts: 3925
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2007 8:16 pm
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Silver item 17-18th century

Postby oel » Fri Jan 01, 2021 6:06 am

Thanks could you provide us with the name and purpose of this item. Is the handle and plug threaded, can we see an image of it? Length and the weight ?
Peter.

AG2012
contributor
Posts: 4436
Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2012 9:47 am

Re: Silver item 17-18th century

Postby AG2012 » Fri Jan 01, 2021 6:13 am

Schraubflasche (screw top bottle) with about 20 cm height and with broad opening.
Although they are sometimes called wine jug in Russian (Кувшин для вина) I think they are tea canisters.
(Tea was brought from Asia to the Netherlands and spread throughout Europe and America (New Amsterdam) in very early 17th century and was extremely expensive at the time).
What else would one keep in a silver gilt vessel like this ?
Regards

Qrt.S
contributor
Posts: 3326
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 9:32 am
Location: Helsinki Finland

Re: Silver item 17-18th century

Postby Qrt.S » Fri Jan 01, 2021 6:36 am

@Theoderich
What the h*ll, amusing!? Very funny, very funny indeed. I have laughed the past two hours, hahahaaa! 33 inputs and you knew the answer all the time. What a waste of time and energy for nothing. Yes you owe an apology, you really do, but getting it accepted is another matter.

oel
co-admin
Posts: 3925
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2007 8:16 pm
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Silver item 17-18th century

Postby oel » Fri Jan 01, 2021 8:00 am

Hi Ag2012,

Size does matter around 20 cm, screw on lid with handle, indeed tea caddy /canister . It is always better to show multiple images and give sizes.
Most likely (low) silver fineness around 12 lot hence the color of of the "patina" green/blue

Hi Theoderich, could you be so kind to provide time periods of the mentioned silversmiths.
Nice start of the new year.


Peter

AG2012
contributor
Posts: 4436
Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2012 9:47 am

Re: Silver item 17-18th century

Postby AG2012 » Fri Jan 01, 2021 10:19 am

Green copper oxide due to low silver contents in the alloy (e.g. 12 Loth).
Unidentified MR worked most likely in late 17th century.

Theoderich
contributor
Posts: 1654
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 6:54 am

Re: Silver item 17-18th century

Postby Theoderich » Fri Jan 01, 2021 10:24 am

oel wrote:Hi Ag2012,

Hi Theoderich, could you be so kind to provide time periods of the mentioned silversmiths.



I know an item with engraving from 1681.
I think it would be from this time.


Return to “Other Countries”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 12 guests