Papal States Fork & Spoon c.1700?

[legrandmogol]

Hi, I recently acquired this fun set. I can make out the hallmark for the Papal States, pre-1800 but I don't know whose maker mark it is. It looks like a scorpion or possibly a lobster. The handles are cast to look like stag horns I think with a ribbon spun around them and an acanthus leaf at the end. I am not sure if one can accurately date the set based just on the Papal States alone hallmark alone. Any help would be appreciated. I tried to add as many pictures of the marks at different lights and angles as I could since they are fairly faint.

[Traintime]

Just tossing in the standard reference link for marks of the Stato Pontificio (Papel States): http://www.silvercollection.it/ROMEHALLMARKS.html

[amena]

There are actually two silversmiths with that mark:
Gamberucci Sebastiano (1633-1658) and his son Marco (around 1650-1680). Gambero in Italian is shrimp. Even the papal mark seems seventeenth century. The strange thing is that the marks seem cast rather than struck and worn. Only you who have the pieces in your hand can understand if they are cast or struck.
Best regards
Amena

[Qrt.S]

Italian marks are not my area, but I share amena's opinion i.e. those marks are not struck but part of the cast. I'm afraid that the objects are copies...The marks' bottom has the same structure as the object's surface and there are no sharp edges. Unfortunately I've seen this fudge before, sorry...

[legrandmogol]

Thank you for your help! They could very well be copies but in person, they seem pretty old and have a lot of honest wear to them. Doesn't mean theyre not copies though. Are there any references or books you recommend regarding these silversmiths you can recommend?

[legrandmogol]

more specifically are there books or online resources that focus on antique Italian made spoons, forks and knives? Also if anyone has seen specifically faked pieces that look like these and they can recall where I would love to see them for comparison purposes.

[Qrt.S]

Well, they are made to look old, only in order deceive possible buyers unaware of what they are buying. The old many times repeated truth here is still valid i.e. "If you don't know what you are buying, don't buy!" My advice is: Do not hesitate, ask here before you buy anything you might regret later.
I believe Amena will revert with an answer regarding sources etc...

[amena]

First of all I apologize, because, looking better, Marco is Sebastiano's nephew and not son, as I wrongly wrote.
The page is taken from the book
Maestri argentieri gemmari e orafi di Roma, by Anna Bulgari Calissoni.

Below you can see some examples of Italian cutlery from the late 600s, early 700s.
Those with the red arrow are from Rome.

Best regards
Amena

[legrandmogol]

Don't worry, I never buy anything I regret. I just make to set a budget for the pieces first. I also can't help myself, I will always be drawn to the pieces that are unique and unknown to me and I can't find anything quite like this set. I also have a healthy collection now of 17th/18th-century European silver that when in hand they hold up. I have a few Venetian and Neapolitan pieces but these are my first Roman ones.
Thank you for the additional info Amena. I will have to hunt down that book.