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Need professional help. Big silver vase or plate

Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 3:58 pm
by Silver9251000
Hello, friends. Need help to identify this piece of art silversmith. This big silver vase have only mark KH 800
And 2 words on 1 leg Spazza and on another side Gaio, I've check it is Italian words. The weight in 949 gramm. I have red a lot of information but didn't find such mark. Maybe someone know who is the master KH and what is the country of manufacture?
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Re: Need professional help. Big silver vase or plate

Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 4:40 pm
by Traintime
Might start with "Unsanctioned Common Marks" section here: https://www.925-1000.com/Fitalian_marks_01.html

Re: Need professional help. Big silver vase or plate

Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 4:45 pm
by Silver9251000
Traintime wrote:Might start with "Unsanctioned Common Marks" section here: https://www.925-1000.com/Fitalian_marks_01.html

I read this but can’t find similar pieces of silversmith. To understand where and when it was made

Re: Need professional help. Big silver vase or plate

Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 3:17 am
by Traintime
I hate to drop in a complication, but because only the legs are marked in Italian and things can be mated, we might need Bahner's expertise to rule out a truncated version of the c.1920's-1940's mark of Karl Hohmann: https://www.925-1000.com/Fgerman_marks_a1884_4.html

I don't know why a German maker might be using Italian legs or markings, but there was a thing called the Axis Powers for a short while. And some German 800 marks do appear in these rectangle sinks as well.

Re: Need professional help. Big silver vase or plate

Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 3:26 am
by Traintime
Perhaps the translation of Gaio and Spazza reads as "gay sweep" like a pattern description? There would seem to be no other reason for these marks.

Re: Need professional help. Big silver vase or plate

Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 4:08 am
by AG2012
Hi,
KH are likely initials of a German maker (those letters are unusual in the beginning of Italian names).
Gaio and Spazza are most likely Italian retailers.
Regards

Re: Need professional help. Big silver vase or plate

Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 4:23 am
by Silver9251000
Traintime wrote:I hate to drop in a complication, but because only the legs are marked in Italian and things can be mated, we might need Bahner's expertise to rule out a truncated version of the c.1920's-1940's mark of Karl Hohmann: https://www.925-1000.com/Fgerman_marks_a1884_4.html

I don't know why a German maker might be using Italian legs or markings, but there was a thing called the Axis Powers for a short while. And some German 800 marks do appear in these rectangle sinks as well.

Thank you for your reply. I saw a few silver vases and plates with both marks Germany and Italy. I examine Karl H. objects but there are few of them in Internet. What is Bahner's expertise? Only 1 leg with 2 words: Spazza and Guai Maybe you r right the legs seems to be from another object because of the way they attached to plate
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Re: Need professional help. Big silver vase or plate

Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 6:55 am
by AG2012
Legs transferred from another object ?
Examine the solder with the tip of a sharp needle.Soft tin lead solder will be scratched, hard solder is impossible to scratch.
Hard solder is the proof of genuine manufacture because heating of the entire object is needed and then immersion into pickling acid solution that would have destroyed gilding.
In short, I think legs with retailer name belong there unless fixed with soft solder.
Regards

Re: Need professional help. Big silver vase or plate

Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:03 pm
by amena
I did not find any Italian manufacturer from 1935 to 1970 called Spazza or Guai or Guaio or Gaio.
The funny thing is that in Italian " spazza guai" means sweeps away troubles.

Re: Need professional help. Big silver vase or plate

Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 1:35 pm
by Silver9251000
AG2012 wrote:Legs transferred from another object ?
Examine the solder with the tip of a sharp needle.Soft tin lead solder will be scratched, hard solder is impossible to scratch.
Hard solder is the proof of genuine manufacture because heating of the entire object is needed and then immersion into pickling acid solution that would have destroyed gilding.
In short, I think legs with retailer name belong there unless fixed with soft solder.
Regards

Ok, l”ll examine solder. But what about mark KH I thought that the clue to country, date and manufacturer. I even can’t find similar vases to campare

Re: Need professional help. Big silver vase or plate

Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 1:36 pm
by Silver9251000
amena wrote:I did not find any Italian manufacturer from 1935 to 1970 called Spazza or Guai or Guaio or Gaio.
The funny thing is that in Italian " spazza guai" means sweeps away troubles.

Maybe this mark is dedicated to special event like wedding?

Re: Need professional help. Big silver vase or plate

Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:49 pm
by Traintime
It's a beautiful piece, but now that we have the correct spelling you've got me laughing as we have arrived at the not-so-famous Italian firm of Sweep & Mess, a.k.a. The Odd Couple (Felix holding a crumber while Oscar clutches a beer can). Personally, I was not thinking of legs stolen from another object, but rather a cooperative arrangement to bring a final product to a specific market. However, if a German maker was willing to alter their mark in order to suit an accepted Italian format, I see no reason why they wouldn't also provide additional Italian words or marks to their own legs. It was the difference of inside details (beyond the marks) on the fourth leg from the other three that seemed like a lot of trouble for the silversmiths to go through unless they expected high sales at the buying end in Italy. But that would be a question of their tooling and costs. If the legs were already being made in Italy, then it might be as simple as mating them during the final work at whichever end this was all done. As to "why Bahner?", you would would have to ask him yourself how he seems to know so many details about German makers. It's not meant to say that the other fine minds on this site are any less knowledgeable, but they all have their own specialty areas of concern and study. I just say Thank God they all turn up here!

Re: Need professional help. Big silver vase or plate

Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 1:51 am
by Bahner
Hello, the object is untypical for Hohmann so i do not think this is his product. Have no clue though, sorry. Regards, Bahner

Re: Need professional help. Big silver vase or plate

Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 3:47 am
by Silver9251000
Bahner wrote:Hello, the object is untypical for Hohmann so i do not think this is his product. Have no clue though, sorry. Regards, Bahner

Hello, thank you for your reply. Is this german mark?

Re: Need professional help. Big silver vase or plate

Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 11:23 am
by Bahner
Hello, the marks do not ring a bell so my guess is as good as yours. Regards, Bahner

Re: Need professional help. Big silver vase or plate

Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 2:37 pm
by Silver9251000
Bahner wrote:Hello, the marks do not ring a bell so my guess is as good as yours. Regards, Bahner

Maybe you can advise where should i search?)

Re: Need professional help. Big silver vase or plate

Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2019 6:53 pm
by Silver9251000
AG2012 wrote:Legs transferred from another object ?
Examine the solder with the tip of a sharp needle.Soft tin lead solder will be scratched, hard solder is impossible to scratch.
Hard solder is the proof of genuine manufacture because heating of the entire object is needed and then immersion into pickling acid solution that would have destroyed gilding.
In short, I think legs with retailer name belong there unless fixed with soft solder.
Regards


I've checked the solder and it is hard and not soft. So legs has been added before gild. I've checked all hallmark and didn't find any KH 800 without any other marks near. So it is no-name silversmith from Italy)

Re: Need professional help. Big silver vase or plate

Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2019 12:29 pm
by amena
It is very unlikely that an Italian silversmith has the initials K Y, and even the style does not seem Italian. If I had to guess, I would say German. but it's just a guess.
Regards
Amena

Re: Need professional help. Big silver vase or plate

Posted: Sun Aug 25, 2019 3:36 pm
by Silver9251000
amena wrote:It is very unlikely that an Italian silversmith has the initials K Y, and even the style does not seem Italian. If I had to guess, I would say German. but it's just a guess.
Regards
Amena

I’ve found another bowl with same mark

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