Need professional help. Big silver vase or plate

PHOTOS REQUIRED - marks + item
Silver9251000
Posts: 9
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2019 10:32 am

Need professional help. Big silver vase or plate

Postby Silver9251000 » Thu Aug 08, 2019 3:58 pm

Hello, friends. Need help to identify this piece of art silversmith. This big silver vase have only mark KH 800
And 2 words on 1 leg Spazza and on another side Gaio, I've check it is Italian words. The weight in 949 gramm. I have red a lot of information but didn't find such mark. Maybe someone know who is the master KH and what is the country of manufacture?
Image
Image
Image
Image

Traintime
contributor
Posts: 1699
Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2015 9:44 pm

Re: Need professional help. Big silver vase or plate

Postby Traintime » Thu Aug 08, 2019 4:40 pm

Might start with "Unsanctioned Common Marks" section here: https://www.925-1000.com/Fitalian_marks_01.html

Silver9251000
Posts: 9
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2019 10:32 am

Re: Need professional help. Big silver vase or plate

Postby Silver9251000 » Thu Aug 08, 2019 4:45 pm

Traintime wrote:Might start with "Unsanctioned Common Marks" section here: https://www.925-1000.com/Fitalian_marks_01.html

I read this but can’t find similar pieces of silversmith. To understand where and when it was made

Traintime
contributor
Posts: 1699
Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2015 9:44 pm

Re: Need professional help. Big silver vase or plate

Postby Traintime » Fri Aug 09, 2019 3:17 am

I hate to drop in a complication, but because only the legs are marked in Italian and things can be mated, we might need Bahner's expertise to rule out a truncated version of the c.1920's-1940's mark of Karl Hohmann: https://www.925-1000.com/Fgerman_marks_a1884_4.html

I don't know why a German maker might be using Italian legs or markings, but there was a thing called the Axis Powers for a short while. And some German 800 marks do appear in these rectangle sinks as well.

Traintime
contributor
Posts: 1699
Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2015 9:44 pm

Re: Need professional help. Big silver vase or plate

Postby Traintime » Fri Aug 09, 2019 3:26 am

Perhaps the translation of Gaio and Spazza reads as "gay sweep" like a pattern description? There would seem to be no other reason for these marks.

AG2012
contributor
Posts: 3629
Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2012 9:47 am

Re: Need professional help. Big silver vase or plate

Postby AG2012 » Fri Aug 09, 2019 4:08 am

Hi,
KH are likely initials of a German maker (those letters are unusual in the beginning of Italian names).
Gaio and Spazza are most likely Italian retailers.
Regards

Silver9251000
Posts: 9
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2019 10:32 am

Re: Need professional help. Big silver vase or plate

Postby Silver9251000 » Fri Aug 09, 2019 4:23 am

Traintime wrote:I hate to drop in a complication, but because only the legs are marked in Italian and things can be mated, we might need Bahner's expertise to rule out a truncated version of the c.1920's-1940's mark of Karl Hohmann: https://www.925-1000.com/Fgerman_marks_a1884_4.html

I don't know why a German maker might be using Italian legs or markings, but there was a thing called the Axis Powers for a short while. And some German 800 marks do appear in these rectangle sinks as well.

Thank you for your reply. I saw a few silver vases and plates with both marks Germany and Italy. I examine Karl H. objects but there are few of them in Internet. What is Bahner's expertise? Only 1 leg with 2 words: Spazza and Guai Maybe you r right the legs seems to be from another object because of the way they attached to plate
Image

AG2012
contributor
Posts: 3629
Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2012 9:47 am

Re: Need professional help. Big silver vase or plate

Postby AG2012 » Fri Aug 09, 2019 6:55 am

Legs transferred from another object ?
Examine the solder with the tip of a sharp needle.Soft tin lead solder will be scratched, hard solder is impossible to scratch.
Hard solder is the proof of genuine manufacture because heating of the entire object is needed and then immersion into pickling acid solution that would have destroyed gilding.
In short, I think legs with retailer name belong there unless fixed with soft solder.
Regards

amena
contributor
Posts: 766
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2012 8:42 am

Re: Need professional help. Big silver vase or plate

Postby amena » Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:03 pm

I did not find any Italian manufacturer from 1935 to 1970 called Spazza or Guai or Guaio or Gaio.
The funny thing is that in Italian " spazza guai" means sweeps away troubles.

Silver9251000
Posts: 9
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2019 10:32 am

Re: Need professional help. Big silver vase or plate

Postby Silver9251000 » Fri Aug 09, 2019 1:35 pm

AG2012 wrote:Legs transferred from another object ?
Examine the solder with the tip of a sharp needle.Soft tin lead solder will be scratched, hard solder is impossible to scratch.
Hard solder is the proof of genuine manufacture because heating of the entire object is needed and then immersion into pickling acid solution that would have destroyed gilding.
In short, I think legs with retailer name belong there unless fixed with soft solder.
Regards

Ok, l”ll examine solder. But what about mark KH I thought that the clue to country, date and manufacturer. I even can’t find similar vases to campare

Silver9251000
Posts: 9
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2019 10:32 am

Re: Need professional help. Big silver vase or plate

Postby Silver9251000 » Fri Aug 09, 2019 1:36 pm

amena wrote:I did not find any Italian manufacturer from 1935 to 1970 called Spazza or Guai or Guaio or Gaio.
The funny thing is that in Italian " spazza guai" means sweeps away troubles.

Maybe this mark is dedicated to special event like wedding?

Traintime
contributor
Posts: 1699
Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2015 9:44 pm

Re: Need professional help. Big silver vase or plate

Postby Traintime » Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:49 pm

It's a beautiful piece, but now that we have the correct spelling you've got me laughing as we have arrived at the not-so-famous Italian firm of Sweep & Mess, a.k.a. The Odd Couple (Felix holding a crumber while Oscar clutches a beer can). Personally, I was not thinking of legs stolen from another object, but rather a cooperative arrangement to bring a final product to a specific market. However, if a German maker was willing to alter their mark in order to suit an accepted Italian format, I see no reason why they wouldn't also provide additional Italian words or marks to their own legs. It was the difference of inside details (beyond the marks) on the fourth leg from the other three that seemed like a lot of trouble for the silversmiths to go through unless they expected high sales at the buying end in Italy. But that would be a question of their tooling and costs. If the legs were already being made in Italy, then it might be as simple as mating them during the final work at whichever end this was all done. As to "why Bahner?", you would would have to ask him yourself how he seems to know so many details about German makers. It's not meant to say that the other fine minds on this site are any less knowledgeable, but they all have their own specialty areas of concern and study. I just say Thank God they all turn up here!

Bahner
contributor
Posts: 1201
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2005 11:34 am
Location: Berlin, Germany

Re: Need professional help. Big silver vase or plate

Postby Bahner » Sat Aug 10, 2019 1:51 am

Hello, the object is untypical for Hohmann so i do not think this is his product. Have no clue though, sorry. Regards, Bahner

Silver9251000
Posts: 9
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2019 10:32 am

Re: Need professional help. Big silver vase or plate

Postby Silver9251000 » Sat Aug 10, 2019 3:47 am

Bahner wrote:Hello, the object is untypical for Hohmann so i do not think this is his product. Have no clue though, sorry. Regards, Bahner

Hello, thank you for your reply. Is this german mark?

Bahner
contributor
Posts: 1201
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2005 11:34 am
Location: Berlin, Germany

Re: Need professional help. Big silver vase or plate

Postby Bahner » Sat Aug 10, 2019 11:23 am

Hello, the marks do not ring a bell so my guess is as good as yours. Regards, Bahner

Silver9251000
Posts: 9
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2019 10:32 am

Re: Need professional help. Big silver vase or plate

Postby Silver9251000 » Sat Aug 10, 2019 2:37 pm

Bahner wrote:Hello, the marks do not ring a bell so my guess is as good as yours. Regards, Bahner

Maybe you can advise where should i search?)

Silver9251000
Posts: 9
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2019 10:32 am

Re: Need professional help. Big silver vase or plate

Postby Silver9251000 » Wed Aug 21, 2019 6:53 pm

AG2012 wrote:Legs transferred from another object ?
Examine the solder with the tip of a sharp needle.Soft tin lead solder will be scratched, hard solder is impossible to scratch.
Hard solder is the proof of genuine manufacture because heating of the entire object is needed and then immersion into pickling acid solution that would have destroyed gilding.
In short, I think legs with retailer name belong there unless fixed with soft solder.
Regards


I've checked the solder and it is hard and not soft. So legs has been added before gild. I've checked all hallmark and didn't find any KH 800 without any other marks near. So it is no-name silversmith from Italy)

amena
contributor
Posts: 766
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2012 8:42 am

Re: Need professional help. Big silver vase or plate

Postby amena » Thu Aug 22, 2019 12:29 pm

It is very unlikely that an Italian silversmith has the initials K Y, and even the style does not seem Italian. If I had to guess, I would say German. but it's just a guess.
Regards
Amena

Silver9251000
Posts: 9
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2019 10:32 am

Re: Need professional help. Big silver vase or plate

Postby Silver9251000 » Sun Aug 25, 2019 3:36 pm

amena wrote:It is very unlikely that an Italian silversmith has the initials K Y, and even the style does not seem Italian. If I had to guess, I would say German. but it's just a guess.
Regards
Amena

I’ve found another bowl with same mark

(admin edit - see Posting Requirements )


Return to “Other Countries”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests