16th Cenury Dutch? French? Silver knife hilt

PHOTOS REQUIRED - marks + item
legrandmogol
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16th Cenury Dutch? French? Silver knife hilt

Postby legrandmogol » Fri Jun 21, 2019 5:14 pm

I am not expecting much luck with this piece but it is hallmarked which is the only reason I figured I would try. The mark kinda looks French but the handle looks Dutch in style. It was found by someone who was metal detecting in the Netherlands. I cleaned it up, there was no telling what it was made of at first but it is silver with remnants of gilding in spots. There is only one hallmark but I have several angles pictured for convenience.

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oel
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Re: 16th Cenury Dutch? French? Silver knife hilt

Postby oel » Sat Jun 22, 2019 2:18 am

Do we know a location, which part of the Netherlands and or city it was found?
The length of the broken piece?


Peter.

oel
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Re: 16th Cenury Dutch? French? Silver knife hilt

Postby oel » Sat Jun 22, 2019 7:16 am

Silver carving knife and perhaps once been part of a carving set, 16th century bridal set
Yes, knife handle 16th, early 17th century. The open worked and engraved handle, gold washed and perhaps a simplified imitation of a popular design.
For the Rolls Roy's among silver bridal sets see:
https://www.rijksmuseum.nl/nl/collectie/BK-1975-79
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Servants were specially trained how to use a carving sets in an elegant way. While the people at the table used to eat with their fingers.

The maker could be of the Southern Netherlands, today's Belgium or Dutch or German and indeed perhaps French. I have asked Theo to have a look at it. I will check if Dutch or Belgian?


Peter.

Dendriet
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Re: 16th Cenury Dutch? French? Silver knife hilt

Postby Dendriet » Sat Jun 22, 2019 7:21 am

.


My assumption is, somewhere one of the Scandinavian countries (Norway Sweden)
My preference is for Sweden

legrandmogol
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Re: 16th Cenury Dutch? French? Silver knife hilt

Postby legrandmogol » Sat Jun 22, 2019 7:46 am

thank you for your help so far. I asked the seller where he originally found it and I await his response. The handle is small, it measures 65mm long x 15mm wide x 6mm thick.

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Re: 16th Cenury Dutch? French? Silver knife hilt

Postby legrandmogol » Sat Jun 22, 2019 9:58 am

The seller responded and told me they found it inside the old city limits of Utrecht

oel
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Re: 16th Cenury Dutch? French? Silver knife hilt

Postby oel » Sun Jun 23, 2019 10:29 am

The silver and broken knife handle was found by a metal detector sweeping the grounds of the old Utrecht city limits. Utrecht has a rich history.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utrecht

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Most of my contacts agree most likely not a Dutch maker's mark. Could it be a crowned A and perhaps a year letter or French charge/discharge mark. Being part of a broken handle, more marks could have been on the missing piece of the handle.
Indeed this type of knife handles were made in France, Southern and Northern Netherlands, Germany and Scandinavia. Time period1570 to about 1650.
I will move this topic to other countries.


Peter.

Gratitude:
Theoderich
Horst H. Arians
Mr. J. Schipper

Dendriet
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Re: 16th Cenury Dutch? French? Silver knife hilt

Postby Dendriet » Mon Jun 24, 2019 5:47 am

.



oel wrote:The maker could be of the Southern Netherlands, today's Belgium or Dutch or German and indeed perhaps French. I have asked Theo to have a look at it. I will check if Dutch or Belgian?
Peter.


Dendriet wrote:.
My assumption is, somewhere one of the Scandinavian countries (Norway Sweden)
My preference is for Sweden


legrandmogol wrote:The seller responded and told me they found it inside the old city limits of Utrecht

oel wrote:The silver and broken knife handle was found by a metal detector sweeping the grounds of the old Utrecht city limits. Utrecht has a rich history.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utrecht

Image
Most of my contacts agree most likely not a Dutch maker's mark. Could it be a crowned A and perhaps a year letter or French charge/discharge mark. Being part of a broken handle, more marks could have been on the missing piece of the handle.
Indeed this type of knife handles were made in France, Southern and Northern Netherlands, Germany and Scandinavia. Time period1570 to about 1650.
I will move this topic to other countries.


Peter.

Gratitude:
Theoderich
Horst H. Arians
Mr. J. Schipper


Et Voila…..

Finland
Citymark : ABO (Turku)
Year: 1822 ?

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Re: 16th Cenury Dutch? French? Silver knife hilt

Postby oel » Mon Jun 24, 2019 6:17 am

Do not think so. Mark Rosenberg made a mistake that is why we did not mention it in the first place.
For Finland see:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finland ... edish_rule
http://www.silvercollection.it/DICTIONA ... NLAND.html
At the beach will get to it later.

Peter.

Ref;
https://www.silverstamplar.com/town-marks.html

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_%C3%85bo

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Re: 16th Cenury Dutch? French? Silver knife hilt

Postby Dendriet » Mon Jun 24, 2019 7:40 am

oel wrote:Do not think so. Mark Rosenberg made a mistake that is why we did not mention it in the first place.
For Finland see:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finland ... edish_rule
http://www.silvercollection.it/DICTIONA ... NLAND.html
At the beach will get to it later.

Peter.

Ref;
https://www.silverstamplar.com/town-marks.html

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_%C3%85bo



I don't find your evidence very convincing, sorry about that

- The citymark is exactly the same as what is shown
- You have no any proof that Rosenberg made a mistake
- You have no any proof that you have seen it before, because then you would have mentioned it, or not?
- Indeed, there is now clear evidence that the city mark as shown exists

This is very remarkable

oel
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Re: 16th Cenury Dutch? French? Silver knife hilt

Postby oel » Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:52 am

The date quoted by Mark Rosenberg 1822? is a mistake.
Unfortunately my Tardy on silver does not mention a crowned A for Turku/Abo.
Finally herewith the town mark for Turku or (Abö in Swedish) 17th century- 20th century. At the end towards 19th-20th century the crown becomes more like a "horizontal bar".
https://www.leimat.fi/en/localitymarks/ ... -t-z/turku
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turku
Today's Finland was occupied by Sweden and Russia.
Turku was the biggest city of Finland and it was also one of the largest and most important medieval cities of the whole Swedish kingdom.
The importance of Turku as a stronghold of the Swedish empire in the east was highlighted in the 17th century by the founding of several schools and administrative institutions. For example, the provincial governement was established in Turku in 1617, and Finland's first court of appeal, the Turun hovioikeus, was founded in 1623. In 1640, the Queen of Sweden ordered the first university in Finland, the Royal Academy of Turku, to be established in Turku. In the years 1808-1809, Sweden and Russia fought a war as a result of which Finland was ceded to Russia. Thus the Russian Emperor became the ruler of Finland and Finns became Russian citizens.

That is why I thought the Turku town mark could have been listed under Sweden (former) town marks (just a reference)

The question remains crowned A with (very) spread legs or?
Image


Peter.


Gratitude;
Qrt.S

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Re: 16th Cenury Dutch? French? Silver knife hilt

Postby Sasropakis » Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:58 am

The crowned A (if it's really that) does remind the town mark of Turku (in Swedish Åbo). It comes from the medieval coat of arms of Turku where the letter A comes from Aboa, the Latin name of the town. However it's definitely not 1822 because then the item should have several other hallmarks like the assay marks and year letter and the crowned A doesn't look like the one used in the early 19th century. And the item looks older so if it would be from Turku I would say it's from 17th century in which case it would be a rare item. But my guess is that it's not made in Turku and the similar crowned A hallmark could be just a coincidence.

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Re: 16th Cenury Dutch? French? Silver knife hilt

Postby Dendriet » Mon Jun 24, 2019 12:09 pm

oel wrote:The date quoted by Mark Rosenberg 1822? is a mistake.
Unfortunately my Tardy on silver does not mention a crowned A for Turku/Abo.


You are not going to tell me that the Tardy is flawless (it is full of mistakes)

oel wrote: The question remains crowned A with (very) spread legs or? .

Rosenberg's book is from 1927/1928
Makers marks are drawn.
It is not very strange that differences can arise

I had read the story of Qrt.s
I compare it with Belgium and the Netherlands, Belgium was once the Netherlands, but a lot has disappeared in that time of transition.
But in the "Netherlands Responsibility marks from 1797 you will also not find these Belgian makers' marks in this or vice versa.


Sasropakis wrote:The crowned A (if it's really that) does remind the town mark of Turku (in Swedish Åbo). It comes from the medieval coat of arms of Turku where the letter A comes from Aboa, the Latin name of the town. However it's definitely not 1822 because then the item should have several other hallmarks like the assay marks and year letter and the crowned A doesn't look like the one used in the early 19th century. And the item looks older so if it would be from Turku I would say it's from 17th century in which case it would be a rare item. But my guess is that it's not made in Turku and the similar crowned A hallmark could be just a coincidence.


We now know the story of Turku / ABo by now
We speak of a part of something that we don't really know
Do you want to tell me that it is a fake or speudo?
You have old original makers marks from Turku / Abo, and would you like to share it with us so that we can compare it

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Re: 16th Cenury Dutch? French? Silver knife hilt

Postby Qrt.S » Mon Jun 24, 2019 12:18 pm

Interesting discussion going on....Yes, there are some similarities with Turku/Åbo's town crest but also similarities to more than a dozen of other crowned As in Europe. Most of them are from France (Paris, Rouen, Metz...).
By the way who says it is the letter A in the first place? It could as well be an M or even a so called Maria Monogram. A combination of A and M standing for Ave Maria. Anyway, in my opinion Turku is out due to the facts Sasropakis already presented. The same goes for Sweden.

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Re: 16th Cenury Dutch? French? Silver knife hilt

Postby Qrt.S » Mon Jun 24, 2019 12:26 pm

@Dendriet
Dendriet wrote:
oel wrote:You have old original makers marks from Turku / Abo, and would you like to share it with us so that we can compare it


Your input came while I was writing. Mind my asking, but "maker's mark"? This is not it, it is a town mark. Anyway, I have quite a good register of known Turku/Åbo masters. None of them are even close to this crowned "whatever it is" mark. Moreover, I don't think it is a fake but as for now unidentified....yet!

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Re: 16th Cenury Dutch? French? Silver knife hilt

Postby Dendriet » Mon Jun 24, 2019 1:06 pm

Qrt.S wrote:@Dendriet
Dendriet wrote:
oel wrote:You have old original makers marks from Turku / Abo, and would you like to share it with us so that we can compare it


Your input came while I was writing. Mind my asking, but "maker's mark"? This is not it, it is a town mark. Anyway, I have quite a good register of known Turku/Åbo masters. None of them are even close to this crowned "whatever it is" mark. Moreover, I don't think it is a fake but as for now unidentified....yet!



Qrt.s

it was me who wrote this.
I meant city marks indeed.
It is strange, in the time of Rosenberg book appeared exactly the same image after which we are looking for.
And no internet. :))

It is difficult to stay afloat in this warmth and hammock
I dive into the water again.
I'm having a hard time, the fridge is working overtime, but not to worry tomorrow it's even warmer, and then again and again warmer

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Re: 16th Cenury Dutch? French? Silver knife hilt

Postby Qrt.S » Mon Jun 24, 2019 3:42 pm

@Dendriet
I don't quite catch you now. Rosenberg's problem is the incorrect attribution of the year. The mark in Rosenberg is undoubtedly Turku's town mark but from the 18th century. However, it is not the same mark as is discussed here. This mark is rather similar but not enough. Moreover, if it would be Turku/Åbo, the following marks are missing; the Swedish control mark, the cat's paw, the year mark and the maker's mark. The marking demands/legislation were already then rather strict in Sweden, which makes it even more unlike that it would be Turku. I have never stumbled into an Swedish/Finnish silver object that would have a town mark only but no maker's mark etc.... It simply doesn't make any sense.
France is not my cup of tea, but try France, Angers 1747 (no guarantees given;-)))
A good question is also that is it silver at all due to the "insufficient" marking?

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Re: 16th Cenury Dutch? French? Silver knife hilt

Postby legrandmogol » Mon Jun 24, 2019 4:11 pm

When I compare the mark in the 3rd picture I posted to the 7th and 8th marks in the top row of marks pictured at the Finnish hallmark site I see a pretty good resemblance. Not an exact match but pretty near and the best so far especially when you consider we only have a drawing to compare it too and the town marks for Turku seem to vary quite a bit. Also, this style of handle, as Peter wrote earlier, was only really used around the late 16th and early 17th century centuries which would predate any Swedish cat paw marks.

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Re: 16th Cenury Dutch? French? Silver knife hilt

Postby Qrt.S » Mon Jun 24, 2019 4:34 pm

@legrandmogol

First of all the "pictures" are not drawings. They are soot marks of original marks. Secondly, which one of us knows better Finnish/Swedish marking procedures? If I say it is neither Swedish nor Finnish, it isn't. I think I know my country's marks best in this context. In addition, the style, what you can see from it, is not from Scandinavia. Thirdly, comparing is not enough, it needs more...
FYI.
The masters during 16th and 17th centuries marked (if marked at all) with what you could call "signature marks", later with initials and even later with town marks but never with a town mark without any "maker's mark". But, as I stated earlier, take a look at France.

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Re: 16th Cenury Dutch? French? Silver knife hilt

Postby legrandmogol » Mon Jun 24, 2019 6:02 pm

Wow, I will assume your rude method of correspondence is because English is not your first language. Now as the owner of the knife, I'll mention again that the hilt is broken and additional marks could have been on the portion that is missing. However, hallmarking from the 17th century and earlier is generally sketchy no matter what country you go to. Rules for hallmarking were different for different articles. Also, having a knife hilt from this period with any marks on the handle is extremely rare. Also, I would think soot would be even less detailed than a drawing. As this piece was found in a very old Dutch town and the Dutch were extensive traders with the Baltic, finding a Finnish knife in Utrecht is not a stretch. Now if you have any real evidence that it is not from Turku besides your God like declaration of, "If I say it is not from Sweden or Finland than it is not!" than I am sure I and all others who are curious about this piece would love to see it. Can you share pictures (photos) of these early marks? How about pictures of early knives or forks from the area? Since you are such an indisputable expert I don't think it is unfair that we can expect to see some indisputable evidence.
I am not arguing that this piece is definitely from Turko but you have presented NO evidence that it is not except your word but why would I or anyone respect your word on anything when you are incapable of being respectful to others?


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