What is the source of this non-American hallmark?

[brgrt]

I'm assuming this unknown tiny intaglio pictorial hallmark is non-American, but what is its source? Strangely, it appears on each urn doubled, and in two places. That means four copies (orientation differs) of the same hallmark on each urn.

[Theoderich]

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=42157

it is Milan see this post




>>
Sometimes I'm too mistrustful.
The tray is genuine of eighteenth century.
The silversmith is Giovan Battista Croff of Milan.
However I think it is better to doubt than to be disappointed later.

Gianguido Sambonet ; Gli argenti Milanesi
(Workshop dedicated to) The Holy Spirit
Giovan Battista Croff, son of Domenico and Teresa Giorgetti, born on March 15, 1756. …………………He is goldsmith and silversmith. He’s already active in 1776 ……………………… Giovan Battista Croff opens a shop with the signboard of "Holy Spirit", at the same address of his home in the district of Goldsmiths 3199. It produces beautiful household silverware . His mark is known in two very similar editions. The first mark, found in the older artifacts, is the dove in front. The second one, found on the most recent artifacts , is the dove seen from the side.
Regards
Amena<<

[brgrt]

Hi Theoderich,

Thanks for finding the mark. That's great! But what I understand is that you doubt the mark's authenticity, that these urns are by Giovan Battista Croff of Milan. Rather, you think a silversmith, perhaps from Hanau in Germany, borrowed the hallmark. In truth, these urns look too modern to be from the 17th century. Just to clarify, what is your conclusion of the provenance of these pieces, if you have any ideas about it?

Tamara

[brgrt]

I misunderstood what you said about Hanau. These urns are Italian, not German. Is there any way to ascertain the silversmith and year/period in which they were made?

[amena]

The person who has some doubts is me.
These doubts derive from the fact that in recent years, in different markets, I have seen no less than a dozen pieces with this mark, while pieces of other Milanese silversmiths of the same period not even one.
Now it is possible that Giovan Battista Croff worked day and night or had many collaborators but certainly some doubts could come.
Moreover, the workmanship of the pieces I have seen is never excellent and the hammer marks do not have the fineness of certain pieces of the eighteenth.
On the other hand, in Sambonet's book there is a drawing and not a picture, which could give us more certainty.
So I'm not sure it's a fake. but I suspect that these are pieces made in Italy in the 1900s.
Accurate photos of your pieces, made from various angles and at a good definition could help us to lean for one solution or another.
Best regards
Amena

[brgrt]

Thanks, Amena, for answering my post.

These urns look too modern to be from the mid-1700s, but why would a 20th century silversmith "borrow" an ancient hallmark? What do you think? Do you find it strange that each bowl repeated Croff’s “holy bird” hallmark FOUR times? Did Croff repeat his hallmarks too? The imprecision of the urns makes me think they’re handmade, but I don’t see any hammer marks on them.

What kind of photos would you like me to take? I’m not sure what you mean by different angles. Do you want me to photograph the inside and underside of the urns? Also can you explain what you meant when you said that in Sambonet's book there is a drawing and not a picture. how would this help date these urns?

Tamara

[amena]

Hello Tamara
I understand that the matter is a bit complicated.
So
"can you explain what you meant when you said that in Sambonet's book there is a drawing and not a picture"
Below are some drawings of marks of Milan from Sambonet's book with photos of them beside. You can see that the drawings are very accurate and very similar to the photos, although, of course, the drawing is always slightly different from reality.



Below is the drawing of the Holy Spirit of Sambonet alongside the photo of the mark we are talking about.



They look a bit similar, but the differences are very evident.
We can not say that they are certainly two different marks, someone could say that it's the same mark and the differences are due to the designer.
why would a 20th century silversmith "borrow" an ancient hallmark?
For the same reason that in Hanau the silversmiths applied marks similar to those of the eighteenth century.
Did Croff repeat his hallmarks too?
 I have never seen an object that is definitely made by Croff and so it is impossible for me to say if Croff would mark his artifacts only once or several times, and what is his real mark.
In conclusion
The mark we are talking about is often attributed to Croff, but also, by someone, to Venice.
There is no evidence that this mark is not genuine, but more likely it is a fantasy mark that resembles that of Croff, according to some, and that of Venice, according to others.
The fact that you consider your urns too modern to be of the 700 supports this hypothesis.
Other photos may be useful, both for documentation, and to highlight details that can make us understand if the manufacture is recent or ancient.
Best regards
Amena

[AG2012]

Hi,
It's always suspicious to find two matching pieces supposedly kept together for 300 years.
Cannot see if they are raised (hammered) on stake or there are solder lines.18th century silversmiths made pieces like these from a single sheet of silver and pedestal (foot) soldered, i.e. no solder lines in the chalice itself.
Regards

[brgrt]

Hi Amena and AG2012:

Thanks for your replies. I'm attaching a photo of the inside and underside of the pieces. On Sunday evening I'll post a photo of the spot where the chalice meets the base to see what can be determined about soldering lines. I understand from your posts that what I have is probably not from the 1700s.

[amena]

Thanks for the photos, but if possible, they should be more in focus to distinguish the details of hand working.
Best
Amena

[brgrt]

Hi Amena,

My camera can't do any better than this. It doesn't have macro focusing. And I'm not sure what you're looking for.
Tamara

[dognose]

Hi Tamara,

It's usually the case that quality images produce quality answers. Why not borrow a camera from a friend?

Trev.

[AG2012]

Search for solder lines, sometimes well hidden and polished, more prominent inside.
They are found in vertical positions (1 and 3) where bent sheet of silver is soldered.
Chalice composed of two parts, upper part soldered to lower part at circumferential line No 2.
That`s not seen in 18th century silver.
Solder line between the base and chalice is acceptable,though.
Again, if well polished, not easy to be seen.
Regards

[brgrt]

Hi All,

I found a bowl very similar to mine online and with the same hallmarks. I'll add the link here.

(admin edit - see Posting Requirements )

Tamara

BTW, is there some way to set up email notification for this site? I never know when someone responds to my posts. I tried emailing the administrator, but the email remained in the outbox.

[brgrt]

HI AG2012,

I'm not sure I understand. Was soldering used in the 18th century or not? You say vertical solder lines would indicate a more recent vintage, but solder lines between chalice and base are OK. Per the piece I saw online (I think you'll admit it was produced by the same silversmith as mine), my piece is early 1800s, not 1700s. Was soldering used in the early 1800s?

Thanks,
Tamara

[AG2012]

Soldering was always used, but silversmithing technique was different.Holloware was raised on the stake from a single sheet of silver. If there was foot (or postament) it had to be soldered to the peace.
The technique of raising metal sheet is still used, but very seldom.
See here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yawQP474RF0

In 19th century and later, instead of raising on stake, a sheet of silver was bent to form a cylinder,soldered (red arrow points the solder line) and used for whatever item (e.g.beaker).


Of course,one cannot be very rigid, but generally speaking absence of raising on stake usually means later production.
Regards

[brgrt]

Thanks, AG2012, for the explanation and video. I learned something new.

I'm posting photos of a bowl and hallmark I found online that are similar to my urns and hallmark. The bowl has the same thin wavy edge, and thick magic-markerish fluting as my urns. And the hallmark is the same, and occurs in several places on the bowl just like it does on my urns. The provenance, according to the writer, is early 1800 Italy, the bowl is handmade, and the hallmark is the Italian eagle silver hallmark from Venice, or possibly Parma.

Tamara

[brgrt]

Hi AG2012,

I'm posting some additional photos of the bowl. Can you see soldering lines?

Tamara

[amena]

Hi Tamara
The imagination or bad faith of some "experts" has no boundaries. How can you say "possibly Parma" of the mark under consideration? The eagle of Parma (92 93 94 95) has two heads and has no halo.



None of the eagles used in 1800, in Parma, Ferrara, Modena, Turin, Palermo ..., resembles the mark under examination
Just as it makes no sense to attribute a mark with an eagle to Venice. Everyone knows that the symbol of Venice is the San Marco's lion .
Does anyone recognize a lion in the mark we are talking about? See also the examples I reported in the post viewtopic.php?f=8&t=42157&p=119767&hilit=CROFF#p119767
Looking at the photo of the interior that you posted, you would say that the bottom of your urn is hammer raised, but, as Ag 2012 says,the technique of raising metal sheet is still used, although very seldom.
I myself observed craftsmen who did it in China some twenty years ago.
In the absence of clear evidence we can remain in doubt that it is a work of Croff, of Milan, but certainly not of Venice or Parma.
Best
Amena
 

[AG2012]

The bottom is soldered for sure, but cannot tell if there are vertical solder lines (sometimes they are difficult to identify even with an object in one`s hands).
There is no need to be an expert in regard of St.Mark's lion of Venice; everyone with high-school education should be familiar with it.
I think Amena has already mentioned the fact - it`s suspicious when many items with the same mark flood the market.
In a word,attribution of all items shown in this thread is inconclusive.
Regards