Help needed to identify these Sabbath Candlesticks?

[mackeonis50]

Hello everyone,

I recently acquired a pair of antique 12" candlesticks and found the hallmark after cleaning one of them.

The legible mark is the letter 'M' under a basket, another smaller mark above is badly rubbed.

The previous owner was unaware of the hallmark and had understood them to be 19 century Portuguese, but the mark is nothing like the Portuguese marks that I have seen.

http://www.mackeonis.com/silver-forum/1 ... ticks1.jpg
http://www.mackeonis.com/silver-forum/1 ... ticks2.jpg
http://www.mackeonis.com/silver-forum/1 ... ticks3.jpg

Thanks in advance

[oel]

Hi, welcome to the forum.
Embedded images get a far greater response than just posting links. For information see:
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=42199
I embedded your images of the Sabbath candlesticks.




Peter.

[AG2012]

Hi,
Could be Porto, Portugal Boar or eagle and II in a square with cut corners for silver fineness .833 used 1886-1938.
As far as I know Portugese makers after 1886 used the initial of their first name, not their last name. So, M with the basket could be maker`s mark.
Btw. definition of Judaica was discussed here. Unless there is an inscription in Hebrew why are they Sabbath candlesticks ?
Regards

[oel]

Hi AG2012,

In my opinion all pair of candlesticks can be used for Sabbath with or without Hebrew inscription. If you visit Judaica Web Store you will find most Sabbath candlesticks are without Hebrew inscription.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shabbat_candles

Best,

Peter

[AG2012]

Hi,
There was a discussion here started by dragonflywink.

viewtopic.php?f=61&t=46416&p=137709&hilit=judaica+zuckerdosen#p137709

Personally, grow weary of so many different silver cups and goblets identified as kiddush cups, or of sugar boxes described as etrog boxes, and firmly declared as Judaica, despite having no decoration, personalization or provenance to suggest they have anything to do with Jewish tradition. Clearly, a sugar box can be used to hold etrog, and a vessel of proper size can hold kiddush wine, and no doubt some were used for those purposes, but while it may even be acceptable to suggest these items can be used as such, that doesn't negate their original intended purpose. Modern Judaica retailers do offer etrog boxes based on old sugar boxes, but they lack locks & keys - can't really recall seeing old etrog boxes, like those in the realistic or stylized shape of the citron fruit or otherwise identifiable as Jewish, with a locking latch.

I suppose candlesticks belong to this category. In this particular case a pair of candlesticks cannot be classified, described and offered for sale as Judaica just because they were allegedly used at Sabbath.

Regards

[dragonflywink]

I believe that my point also applies to candlesticks, though suppose one might consider them most likely Sabbath or Shabbat candlesticks if the maker were Jewish or known to cater to the Jewish market. Again, these would certainly be nice as Shabbat candlesticks and are a common shape for that use, but their form doesn't necessarily dictate that they are Judaica - similar sticks were produced for secular table use, as well as for alter candlesticks in churches...

Below is a page from a 19th century French catalog showing a similar footed candlestick among others:



~Cheryl

[mackeonis50]

I believe that my point also applies to candlesticks, though suppose one might consider them most likely Sabbath or Shabbat candlesticks if the maker were Jewish or known to cater to the Jewish market. Again, these would certainly be nice as Shabbat candlesticks and are a common shape for that use, but their form doesn't necessarily dictate that they are Judaica - similar sticks were produced for secular table use, as well as for alter candlesticks in churches...

Below is a page from a 19th century French catalog showing a similar footed candlestick among others:



~Cheryl

Many thanks, Cheryl, but French silver marks are clearly defined and my searching as not turned up a basket mark.

best, Peter

[mackeonis50]

Hi,
There was a discussion here started by dragonflywink.

viewtopic.php?f=61&t=46416&p=137709&hilit=judaica+zuckerdosen#p137709

Personally, grow weary of so many different silver cups and goblets identified as kiddush cups, or of sugar boxes described as etrog boxes, and firmly declared as Judaica, despite having no decoration, personalization or provenance to suggest they have anything to do with Jewish tradition. Clearly, a sugar box can be used to hold etrog, and a vessel of proper size can hold kiddush wine, and no doubt some were used for those purposes, but while it may even be acceptable to suggest these items can be used as such, that doesn't negate their original intended purpose. Modern Judaica retailers do offer etrog boxes based on old sugar boxes, but they lack locks & keys - can't really recall seeing old etrog boxes, like those in the realistic or stylized shape of the citron fruit or otherwise identifiable as Jewish, with a locking latch.

I suppose candlesticks belong to this category. In this particular case a pair of candlesticks cannot be classified, described and offered for sale as Judaica just because they were allegedly used at Sabbath.

Regards

You are quite right,of course,and I was just going by the ornate 'shawl like' decorations that are widely featured.

Best,

Peter

[mackeonis50]

Hi,
Could be Porto, Portugal Boar or eagle and II in a square with cut corners for silver fineness .833 used 1886-1938.
As far as I know Portugese makers after 1886 used the initial of their first name, not their last name. So, M with the basket could be maker`s mark.
Btw. definition of Judaica was discussed here. Unless there is an inscription in Hebrew why are they Sabbath candlesticks ?
Regards

Thanks for suggesting the .833 silver Portugal marks,but would these be regarded as small articles I understand that the marks that you suggest were only used on small articles.

best

peter

[AG2012]

Boar and eagle heads were used for small articles. Full figure for big articles with the same Roman II indicating fineness..
Cannot be seen what we have here.
Regards

[oel]

Hi, are the candlestick marked on the (removable) nozzles/drip pans?

Peter

[dragonflywink]

To be clear, I was not in any way suggesting that your candlesticks were French, only showing that similar candlesticks, regardless of their origin, are not necessarily intended for Shabbat...

~Cheryl

[dragonflywink]

Have tried to see the 'shawl like' decorations you mention, but only see rippled Rococo-style elements - is that what you're referring to?

~Cheryl

[mackeonis50]

Have tried to see the 'shawl like' decorations you mention, but only see rippled Rococo-style elements - is that what you're referring to?

~Cheryl

Thanks - yes they are - the shawl motif was my translation. Now I think that I was trying to justify my own translation for Shabbat sticks. Thanks for pointing that out.

[mackeonis50]

Hi, are the candlestick marked on the (removable) nozzles/drip pans?

Peter

Yes, marked on the drip pans, but they are not removable.

[oel]

Perhaps only the drip pans were assayed and correctly hallmarked for small silver items and after permanently attached to the candle sticks which I believe should carry hallmarks on its base. Duty dodging? Enjoy your nice candlesticks.

Best,

Peter

[mackeonis50]

Perhaps only the drip pans were assayed and correctly hallmarked for small silver items and after permanently attached to the candle sticks which I believe should carry hallmarks on its base. Duty dodging? Enjoy your nice candlesticks.

Best,

Peter

That's an excellent interpretation - many thanks - Peter

[AG2012]

Yes, marked on the drip pans, but they are not removable.

Meaning there are four sets of marks.Is there any mark better struck ?
Thanks

[mackeonis50]

Yes, marked on the drip pans, but they are not removable.

Meaning there are four sets of marks.Is there any mark better struck ?
Thanks

Unfortunately not - only one set of marks visible, on the top of the stick and, the other stick was marked on the top but is is badly rubbed...