Silver gilt casket

[shneal]

Hello, I recently purchased a gilt silver casket. I think it has a lubeck mark but I cannot identify the makers mark. Is anyone able to identify the marks?

Thank you for looking.

http://s24.postimg.org/lq1lsg791/marks.jpg

(admin photo edit - remember to use the preview feature)

[dognose]

Hi,

Welcome to the Forum.

Your are far more likely to get a response if you embed your images as very few people will click on links.

Trev.

[shneal]

Thank you Trev. I thought I had - sorry :-/

[shneal]

[dognose]

Trev.

[silverfan]

it is not Lübeck, but Austria Vienna 18.., nineteenth century (the two figures for the year are not readable). The incomplete mark to the left might be the maker's mark.
Regards silverfan

[shneal]

Thank you silverfan.

[AG2012]

Very spurious Vienna mark. Rotated to horizontal position and compared to genuine Alt Wien Radelpunze. Letter A is too small and displaced upwards, digits off horizontal line, the overall appearance is wrong, the field with 13 Loth is wrong (I don`t mean poorly struck but its appearance and contours are wrong).
A picture is worth a thousand words.
In short, I think the marks are faked.

[shneal]

Interesting, thank you. Any obvious reasons for faking the marks? It's not an expensive item.

[AG2012]

Your casket or sugar box (``Zuckerdose``,as often described in Germany and Austria) is really nice, although I have objections regarding casting and relief. Search for ``Wiener Biedermeier Zuckerdose`` (Vienna Biedermeier sugar box) and ``Zuckerdose aus Silber`` (silver sugar box).
``Expensive `` meaning is very relative.
Hopefully, other members of the forum will join in the discussion.
Regards

[shneal]

Thank you AG2012.

(admin edit - see Posting Requirements )

Thank you for the sugar box advice. Warmest wishes

[shneal]

Sorry for breaching your rules admin - was not intentional.

[wolfgang]

the hallmark of Vienna seems to be overstruck a second time, therefore these "shadowlike" missing part of the A on the right side, the same event on left upperside of the shield... Usually it should be marked in the lid and on the corpus of the casket. Is it? Did you find a little HR in rectangular field? The makers mark as you show is the double eagle of Hermann Ratzersdorfer, double eagle means he was privileged by the emperors kuk court, He lived 1815-1891, in the guild list 1845-1881. 1843 registration of the national factory authorization for the production of Rococo fancy goods and of the company "H.Ratzersdorfer, imperial royal silver and gold wares producer". For me it seems genuine, beginning historism, factory production between 1845 and 1865.
Where did you find the hallmarks? lid? (source: Dr Waltraud Neuwirth Wiener Silber 1781-1866, page 104, page 248 Punzen P2491, P2492, P2493, P2494
regards
wolfgang

[AG2012]

Hermann Ratzersdorfer was not mentioned in ``Liste der k.k. Hoflieferanten 1866``.

When was he appointed k.k. lieferant?

Several important enameled pieces sold at auctions had no imperial eagle beside Diana`s head, and that was after Radlpunze.

Gemarkt: Wiener Dianakopf und Windhundpunze, Meistermarke HR für Hermann Ratzersdorfer.

Is this the quality expected by Hermann Ratzersdorfer?
Is this the mark of Imperial eagle?
(Just my opinion, not everything he made was rock crystal and enamel, but still).
I find the marks very spurious,particularly without full sets of marks found elsewhere.

[wolfgang]

Hi AG2012, you are comparing lemons with apples, Ratzersdorfer was not Hoflieferant, he was producing under privilege of the imperial court as I told already and he was allowed to use the double eagle as makers mark with his initials, thats quite a big difference. Especially for you, to tell the difference again: he was no simple dealer, he owned a factory under imperial privilege!! So you cant find him as Hoflieferant (Because he was not). To help you further, after 1866 the double eagle as hallmark didn't exist anymore. We are talking about the time between 1843 and 1866, ok? So why Diana's head? Did you see some Diana's head on the piece we are discussing? Your question about the Ratzersdorfer mark its just that! I told you the page and the book where to find it, just look and compare, don't ask. H.Ratzersdorfer had a factory, you want to discuss the quality of silverware he produced or didn't produce in this time, you got a catalogue of his silverware? Me not, I only can tell you with the help of the book about Wiener Silber by Dr Waltraud Neuwirth that the makers mark is by Hermann Ratzersdorfer. By the way there exist thousands of fakes even in this time, this casket could be a fake, perhaps its genuine. Forget about discussing one photo of a backside of this piece of factory made piece of silver.
Good luck
wolfgang

[AG2012]

OK. k.k. privilegiert (für Gewerbsunternehmen) is not the same as k.u.k. Hoflieferant. I wonder whether that was the reason Hermann Ratzersdorfer was discontent with the Imperial court (``corrupt`` he said).It`s easier to understand the difference in German, no need to compare with lemons and apples.
Another misunderstanding. Having mentioned Diana`s head without Imperial eagle I meant just that; no imperial warrant mark. I did not mean maker`s mark (initials) incorporated within the imperial eagle. And imperial warrant mark was used after 1867, right?
All said, I am a bit off topic. In conclusion, with only two marks given, I find the marks very spurious, as well as the item itself.
If we get more marks we might continue based on that,until then
Kindest regards

[shneal]

Dear Wolfgang, thank you for the very informative posts. Does this help?



Regards,

shneal

[wolfgang]

Dear shneal, it helps. My conclusion, depending from the impression of your photo: The rim has been hallmarked before being soldered to the body of the casket, because you can see only half of the marks. For me the casket seems to be cast silver, is it very heavy? Can you provide us with a clear Photo of the interior with the open lid, the front side and the bottom from outside? It would be better to understand the making of. The style I think is ok for Ratzersdorfer (compare with pictures in ASCAS, Austrian silver, Ratzersdorfer). Weight and measures would help...
regards
Wolfgang

[shneal]

Dear Wolfgang,

Thank you once again. Here are the pictures your requested.

Regards,

shneal

[shneal]

13cm high, 9.5cm wide, 406 gms