Mario Buccellati Hallmarks?

[chrismittty]

I have an awesome op to get my haands on a nice chunk of Italian silver. A Mario Buccellati Creamer and some kind of pitcher, marked 800. Only problem is I am located too far from the item to go and test before its gone and its from someone who knows nearly nothing about silver, But did state that the Item has "NO STERLING SILVER MARKINGS." That makes me worried they know even though its marked 800 that it isn't in fact silver. I am wondering if stuff like that Is often faked or reproduced? I can't verify if the markings look correct because I can't find much on them, Is anyone familiar with them? They look nothing like the Buccellati Sterling hallmarks I have seen.
Anyone? Please help, Ill try and Include some photos.
How do I attach Images, I see the button but Im not so computer savy.

(admin edit - see Posting Requirements )

[dognose]

Hi,

Welcome to the Forum.

Your question cannot be answered until you have provided the required images.

How to Add Images

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www.tinypic.com is recommended. Embedded images get a for greater response than just posting links.

Please remember that this forum is about silver research. We do not offer advice on purchasing.

Trev.

[chrismittty]

This is the only one I could get, Does that help at all? the Made In italy is kinda thick on the E and the M in Mario appears the same way...Could just be me, could just be the angle, could just be a variation annd completely legitimate. The "lozenge" appears to have an M for Milan..Which would be correct if I am not mistaken..?
I have scoured Gooogs' and other search engines and well, to no avail here I am.

[dognose]

The cut lozenge mark should read 15 MI. See: viewtopic.php?f=38&t=27003&p=66176

A sharper image of the marks would be a great help.

Trev.

[AG2012]

Buccellati family did not bother much to mark silver properly - what you have shown is the best I have seen from them.
There are engraved cigar boxes of the highest quality done by their grandfather who marked them with ``800`` in an oval and engraved M.Buccellati Italy, and engraver`s initials.
But one can tell easily with engraving - extremely difficult to execute and cannot be fake.As for pitchers,this is another story.
Besides,they discontinued engraving based on medieval Italian etchings and prints (Milan) and started with Mecca and Medina but of much lower quality, never mind - sold in Arab world for $$$$$ (the number of zeroes).
They are kind people - will answer, or visit their shop at Montenapoleone in Milan.

[chrismittty]

The cut lozenge mark should read 15 MI. See: viewtopic.php?f=38&t=27003&p=66176

A sharper image of the marks would be a great help.

Trev.

Wow thanks! I appreciate the direction, Thats the best picture of the bottom I can get, It doesn't even look from the photos like 15 MI could even fit in that lozenge but I'm not sure exactly how it should or does look. The whole creamer pitcher looks Exactly like the other few I have seen, So I was hoping it was real...Are items like this commonly faked? I mean, I guess its possible right?

[chrismittty]

Buccellati family did not bother much to mark silver properly - what you have shown is the best I have seen from them.
There are engraved cigar boxes of the highest quality done by their grandfather who marked them with ``800`` in an oval and engraved M.Buccellati Italy, and engraver`s initials.
But one can tell easily with engraving - extremely difficult to execute and cannot be fake.As for pitchers,this is another story.
Besides,they discontinued engraving based on medieval Italian etchings and prints (Milan) and started with Mecca and Medina but of much lower quality, never mind - sold in Arab world for $$$$$ (the number of zeroes).
They are kind people - will answer, or visit their shop at Montenapoleone in Milan.

So that being the best you have seen, that just likely sounds "too good to be true", This marking is or looks like it is stamped rather than engraved, and I cannot see the defining signatures Dog is trying to alert me to look out for. Man this is crazy I wish they had been as proud as they were skilled.

[dognose]

Have a read of this page: http://www.925-1000.com/Fitalian_marks_01.html

At the end of WWII they removed the Fasces symbol from the punches, some were quite crudely erased thus making them a little unclear. I cannot tell from this image, but could this be the reason why you are struggling to read that mark? If so, then perhaps you have a firm date for the piece.

Trev.

[chrismittty]

Have a read of this page: http://www.925-1000.com/Fitalian_marks_01.html

At the end of WWII they removed the Fasces symbol from the punches, some were quite crudely erased thus making them a little unclear. I cannot tell from this image, but could this be the reason why you are struggling to read that mark? If so, then perhaps you have a firm date for the piece.

Trev.

Yeah I really wish I could read it haha, Thanks again for your help Trev, I understand the removal of the Fiasco and all, but it doesn't look like either there is one or a sloppily removed Fiasco stamp tip to me, Dunno bout you but it hardly looks like more than one symbol at all. Thats my issue, Im not seeing numbers and letters, Just one letter...but you can see everything I can so I really apppreciate your help. Plus figuring this out It would help mentally solidify if the piece is legit or not too, or a good replica. I was just reading about pseudo-hallmarks, and what they are, I don't understand "delete modern marks" and I took that its still made of whatever grade silver was stamped? I wouldn't think after research and what y'all have said that its likely to be fake....This Italian silver is blowing my mind haha..


.Crosses fingers...Hope.

[AG2012]

Unfortunately, sometimes my grandfather forgot to put the trade mark on silver and gold jewelry.

My pieces are made in the fifties and in ``800``. But they are all hand engraved.I have no insight in their recent production,except for what is shown in their website under ``silver`` and I have not had their pieces in my hands to compare, and even reputable sellers seldom show marks.In short,one must be very careful with things like this,but you already know that.
Now I see they claim everything is made in sterling.

[chrismittty]

That is the complete set, not the exact one but the same design, minus the tray and sugar, so the one my sights are on is an incomplete set, but oh well, Im happy with the two pitchers, And at 190 oz for the whole set the creamer and tea must weigh a hefty chunk. I'm looking for a nice heavy "center piece" item for my collection, and these lil guys fit the bill.
I'm not sure what to make of your post AG, so yours were made of .800 and he only used "sterling"? Thats odd, I'm gonna guess that little insert has to be somewhat misinformed because I have seen a lot of items by "Mario Buccellati" in .800, and you apparently OWN some as well, And I am currently looking at an identical to the one I posted in the Image and shes .800 too. Are you saying be careful becase this stuff is faked, and faked easily, or that its commonly made and marks are forged. I would hate to pay top dollar only to have a "replica" like all the plated T&Co. stuff made and sold at flea markets..

[AG2012]

In short, the marks look OK to me.

(admin edit - please, no linking to commercial webstes - see Posting Requirements )

But marks can be easily faked;the point is whether Buccellati made the design of the set you showed.
Disregard .800 or ``sterling``. My engraved boxes were made by their grandfather Mario and he made them in .800 and I can tell exactly the technique used, called “Il Laghetto” and the smallest details - my knowledge is limited to Mario`s boxes and engravings.
In a word, search for proven design to compare.

[chrismittty]

Well the set I showed is one that sold as a Mario Buccellati for a pretty penny in 2008, so I'm assuming since the one I am shooting for looks the exact same, and says Mario Buccellati as the first Image shown on the bottom its at least supposed to look real haha. So yes, The set is really a design by him.
This Is likely a genuine piece then?

[AG2012]

Right,the design is most probably Buccellati because Christie`s New York would not make such a mistake to sell a fake (when you mentioned 2008 I recalled they had the set on auction in 2008 - it must be the same set you are referring to).Do not hesitate any more - buy it, because there is no better reference than Christie`s.Auction houses do make mistakes but on the other hand,the logic is very sound:1.the same design 2.reputable auction house 3. four years ago - enough time to hear if something wrong happened.
In short, I would not hesitate, buy it, but do not pay ``a pretty penny`` to a private seller, because they often value their pieces based on the hammer price which is utterly wrong - they should know the owner can expect only about 60% of the hammer price when everything is deducted.
Good luck!

[oel]

Hi Ag2012,

Just for the record; in auctions, the buyer's premium is a percentage additional charge on the hammer price of the lot. It is made by the auctioneer to cover 'administrative expenses' with premiums in the region of 10%-20%.
Is the hammer price a fair market value? I believe so yes. Normally insurance value -40% is fair market value. Of course at auction we need a few bidders who bid against each other and bid above the reserve set by the seller/auction house and both buyer and seller pay a premium/commission based upon a percentage of the hammer price to the auction house. But I agree if we sell private (bypass an auction house) and take the hammer price of a comparable piece sold at auction as a price reference, we could deduct or add a certain % to establish the minimum asking price for our privately sold object. It is up to the potential buyer to do his homework.

Best wishes,

Oel

[chrismittty]

Sadly as it was via a private seller and others had taken note to the 08 price It soared at far more than I expected. I found another the the two larger tea and coffee pots (admin edit) I missed those while looking else where. I have an idea as to what was going on, since these pieces are pretty rare I think Someone found this for sale and was offering it for bid before they owned it. I think, I received photos I have seen elsewhere now. Shame Shame I was real excited. I'm looking for something new to collect now. Haha.


Oh and thanks so much for the help guys, It was thrilling even though I didn't get it, and I really appreciate the quick help. With any luck somebody knowledgeable got them and will enjoy em just as much!