Wher does it come from?

PHOTOS REQUIRED - marks + item
Smokanabeach
contributor
Posts: 236
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2011 1:35 pm
Location: France, Cannes

Wher does it come from?

Postby Smokanabeach » Sat Jul 21, 2012 10:28 am

Hello everybody!

Here are pictures of a little silver sterling bowl.

Image
Image

(admin photo edit - images too large - link only - see Posting Requirements )

Regarding to the hallmarks, I've got 3 hypothesis: first, those hallmarks correspond to the city of Nice (french riviera), XVIIIè, at the time Nice was italian; second, italian hallmark of the city of Modène, before 1860; third, Deutschland, XVIIIè.

And you, what do you think about it?

Thanks for your answers.

JayT
contributor
Posts: 648
Joined: Thu Feb 18, 2010 1:45 pm

Re: Wher does it come from?

Postby JayT » Sat Jul 21, 2012 12:39 pm

Okay, I’ll start the discussion with my input about your first hypothesis (Nice XVIII C):
Technique: This bowl doesn’t look hand-raised as you’d expect for the XVIII C, but rather machine-spun as evidenced by the fine striations. There is no centering mark.
Design motif: While the anthemions around the rim could be a late XVIII C neoclassical design motif, the design looks like an applied milled (machine-stamped) band rather than hand-chased as you’d expect for an XVIII C piece.
Patina: The colour looks flat and does not appear to have the warm glow of an item that has been around since the XVIII C.
Marks: The eagle does not ressemble the Nice XVIII C charge mark. The AB 900 mark is not an XVIII C mark. For Nice the placement of the marks should be on the outside of the bowl, not inside.
So… Not an item from Nice in my opinion, and doesn’t date to the XVIII C.

AG2012
contributor
Posts: 4217
Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2012 9:47 am

Re: Wher does it come from?

Postby AG2012 » Sat Jul 21, 2012 1:47 pm

If for the decor only:very early 19th century, but it does not tell us much - used often in 20th century silver.
Unfortunately, 900 speaks for itself, as said above.

Smokanabeach
contributor
Posts: 236
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2011 1:35 pm
Location: France, Cannes

Re: Wher does it come from?

Postby Smokanabeach » Sat Jul 21, 2012 2:53 pm

Thanks for your answer. As we know that is not from XVIII, not from Nice, I will try to find another way...

Smokanabeach
contributor
Posts: 236
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2011 1:35 pm
Location: France, Cannes

Re: Wher does it come from?

Postby Smokanabeach » Mon Jul 23, 2012 6:40 am

And what about Modène? Mid-XIXies? Could be an idea according to your comments...

Dad
contributor
Posts: 678
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2010 2:52 pm
Location: St. Petersburg

Re: Wher does it come from?

Postby Dad » Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:57 am

Hi, All

May be I wrong, but the mark (A 900) have looking like the Belgian marks of the first half of the 20th century.

"..Those unregistered silver content marks can have a great diversity of form ... They were used from 1869 to 1942."

( http://www.modernsilver.com/Belgianartdeco.htm )

Best reg..

Smokanabeach
contributor
Posts: 236
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2011 1:35 pm
Location: France, Cannes

Re: Wher does it come from?

Postby Smokanabeach » Wed Jul 25, 2012 12:45 pm

Very interesting! I agree the "A" & "800" in a lozenge make me think about my hallmarks to... Does it mean "B" could be for "Brussel"?...

Smokanabeach
contributor
Posts: 236
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2011 1:35 pm
Location: France, Cannes

Re: Wher does it come from?

Postby Smokanabeach » Tue Aug 07, 2012 4:30 am

I'm back as I saw this week-end a spoon with the traditional blazon of Nice...

Image

Sheer coincidence?...

Smokanabeach
contributor
Posts: 236
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2011 1:35 pm
Location: France, Cannes

Re: Wher does it come from?

Postby Smokanabeach » Tue Aug 07, 2012 4:37 am

Another view...

Image

Smokanabeach
contributor
Posts: 236
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2011 1:35 pm
Location: France, Cannes

Re: Wher does it come from?

Postby Smokanabeach » Fri May 01, 2015 3:22 am

It took a while but I fund my answer today and it is:Italy, Modena,before 1860- crown eagle , italy, modena silver hallmark!

JayT
contributor
Posts: 648
Joined: Thu Feb 18, 2010 1:45 pm

Re: Wher does it come from?

Postby JayT » Fri May 01, 2015 2:06 pm

Smokanabeach:
Thanks for the clarification.

davidross
contributor
Posts: 460
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 1:58 am

Re: Wher does it come from?

Postby davidross » Fri May 01, 2015 9:29 pm

I am rather far afield here, but "before 1860" seems too early for a metric-based 900 mark.

WIkipedia states that Italy adopted the metric system in 1861, following the lead of Piedmont (see the section "International Adoption"):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metric_system

I am wondering if it should not be "after 1860" or perhaps, more realistically, "after 1880."

Even the German Empire, which adopted the metric system in 1872 (source: same Wikipedia article) didn't get around to revising its hallmark system until the 1886.

Admittedly not my area of expertise, so hopefully the OP or someone else will be able to explain what appears to be a historical anachronism.

DR

Smokanabeach
contributor
Posts: 236
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2011 1:35 pm
Location: France, Cannes

Re: Wher does it come from?

Postby Smokanabeach » Sat May 02, 2015 6:37 am

Really interesting! I post "before 1860" as I found the same hallmark on the link bellow (hope I can post it):

http://www.h.cx/?key=&country=Italy&province=&p=15

Then, we all have already found items with hallmarks we can't explain: for instance yesterday, consulting the french section, I saw for the first time flatware with french silversmith Puiforcat hallmark with... German or russian hallmark !!! Of course we can think those flatware have been produced during german occupation in France but that was first ununderstandable to me!

At all, thanks to you anyway fort those really interesting informations!

Smoka

Gimme
Posts: 17
Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2010 8:51 am

Re: Wher does it come from?

Postby Gimme » Mon Jun 01, 2015 8:27 pm

From the style, mark and silver content, I would suggest looking in the Caspian sea area, Georgia, Armenia, Azerbaijan etc

Gimme
Posts: 17
Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2010 8:51 am

Re: Wher does it come from?

Postby Gimme » Tue Jun 09, 2015 10:23 am

I found it

http://www.h.cx/?ShowHallmark=15805

Modena Italy...you were correct

amena
contributor
Posts: 858
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2012 8:42 am

Re: Wher does it come from?

Postby amena » Fri Jun 12, 2015 9:43 am

Hello Smoka
I have some small doubt left about the identification of your cup.
The image of H.CX is certainly identical to the marks on your cup, but in the books I have, the Modena’s eagle is represented quite differently.
Below I reproduce the marks from the book of Elizabeth Barbolini which deals specifically in silvers of Modena and Reggio.
Image
Also the other mark, the lozenge, does not look like a manufacturer mark in use in Modena. It looks instead like some marks of Roman silversmiths.
Perhaps they could be fantasy marks used by a silversmith during the long period (1872 1935) in which in Italy there was no law on the hallmarking of precious metals.
Sometimes in the past I found some errors on H.CX, which then were corrected.
You may write to Marina, who is very kind, to ask where she got the information published.
Regards
Amena


Return to “Other Countries”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests