Flatware ID Request, likely Central/Eastern European

[Gligorijevic]

Can anyone ID the two marks displayed in the first three images (each image from a different utensil)?

The stainless knife-blade stamp (fourth image) suggests a country where German is widely spoken, though through online and some print search I could match the assay with none among any of the three principal.

A top view of the flatware is at bottom.

[Gligorijevic]

Additional information: the pieces are a minimum 50 years of age. How much older, I've no idea.

It's been just a couple days but I see better than a possible 20 different pairs of eyes have taken a gander.

Do any of you experts have ideas to rule in or out, such as: "Well the assay could be so-and-so because..." or "it's definitely not German because..."? Suspicion (or conviction) as to bird type? Roman and Arabic numeral meanings--if the latter denotes purity (and if so, which?), what could (or does) the former? Any clues to associate with cartouche shape, numeral positioning or bird posture?

Read nothing into one or two of the mark images' misleadingly rosaceous coloring, merely an effect of the lighting and camera settings: size, clarity and contrast were the objective.

Any insights at all and reasoning as to thinking, appreciated.

[Joerg]

Dear Gilgorijevic

The fact that nobody is posting a reply is not as sign of ignorance. Your case is difficult. Your bird mark looks like a European National Silver Standard mark, with the Roman III indicating 3th standard, usually around .800 finess. I do not find this mark in any reference, and I think other forum members have the same problem. Something is wrong.
The knife shape and material point towards 20th century, older knives have straight blades and carbon steel. I would say after 1920. The style of the makers mark? HL points towards arts&crafts period, Art Deco, so around 1925-1935. This would also fit with the flatware pattern, which appears to me also a style of the 1920ies.
"ROSTFREI" is German. The word is crudely engraved. This is not the work of a large company, but of a small shop.
You say the set is at least 50 years old. If you know that, you may also have a story you can share where it came from 50 or more years ago.
I see three possibilities:
- Silver plate, unknown marker, close to a fraud
- The work of a small silver smith or shop, maybe just assembled and marked in the shop. The pieces bought unmarked (Tax duty saving?), somewhere in a (still) German speaking area of central Europe. The marks are fantasy. Timeline: 1920ies or 1930ies.
- A 50 or more year old fraud.

Maybe other forum members have other ideas.


Kind regards

Jörg

[Dad]

Hi, All.

Very interesting marks. Style is similar to the Yugoslavian hallmarks for small subjects (the Roman figures + the Arabian figures). Only there the cock is represented. May be pre-war Croatia? Somebody knows as looked hallmarks of Croatia 1930-40?

Best Reg..

[Qrt.S]

I'm also wondering what these marks might be. Never seen them before. Dad's question about Croatia is relevant. Here is the answer to that but unfortunately it does not solve this case. Post WW in 1922 the Kingdom of the Serbs, Croats and Slovens used the same hallmarks up to 1933. You will find them in connection with Yugoslavia. A new set of hallmarks was released 1933. These hallmarks were used to 2006. Unfortunately there is nothing common with these marks.

[Gligorijevic]

[NB: I drafted this reply to Jörg last night before reading Dad and Qrt.S's insights and am posting it unrevised.]

Jörg-

Thank you for your candid response. I had not considered authenticity and I am now singularly interested in all you and others have to write concerning the matter.

Let me first reply that ignorance on anyone's part was furthest from my mind, though perhaps I did mistake the lack of response to even the consideration of bird type for indifference.

Regarding provenance I believe the acquisitor purchased the utensils from a family in the vicinity of Beograd 50 years back. They were not then new so this would jibe with your speculation of a 1920s or 30s decade of production.

Of course the 'L' fits nowhere in the Cyrillic but Serbs use the Latin interchangeably and I have learned nothing to suggest that one or the other might have been preferred under the King, Alexander I or Peter II, assuming your Art Deco labeling and dating are correct. And the Croats use the Latin, as do the Slovenes, the Montenegrins. Farther afield though proximate are Hungary, Romania.

So to confirm I understand you rightly, among your three scenarios there is no room for legitimacy in the assay--in fact in your mind, the so-called assay:

Your first, silver plate, seems to me would render the mark not close to inauthentic but truly inauthentic. In the second you conjecture the false mark (by fantasy I read fake, is this correct?) is fashioned to lubricate the sale or to circumvent a duty. The third you describe simply as fraud, perhaps to cover any motivation not addressed in the first two.

Have I paraphrased you accurately?

And you know this because while there exist myriad silver pieces with unattributed though probably legitimate maker's marks, the comparative scant number of assay office marks have come to be well-known and widely circulated. And certainly those of the last hundred years, of Europe.

This would seem to make sense to me, if you are correct.

You described the Roman numeral at lower left of the assay as the indication of purity and I had wanted to ask again what the Arabic numeral at lower right might be, but if you claim the mark a fabrication, it is irrelevant, yes? (I have come to think it might be a regional code of some sort.)

I am interested in what other members may think in addition to further assertions from you, Jörg.

All help in resolving Jörg's indictment much appreciated, as, if a fake mark (or marks), there well could be other such pieces carrying similar marks and a story to accompany them.

Thank you again for your post, the German-language stainless stamp aside, every other part of it was new to me.

Regards,

Ivan.

[Gligorijevic]

Dad, Qrt.S-

Yess. Bravo.

For those interested in the current Serb assay marks:

http://www.paragraf.rs/propisi/naredba_ ... etala.html

And for a crude translation, paste that link to:

http://translate.google.com

Of the brief image text which will escape the translator, the pertinent are srebra, silver, and mali žigovi, small marks.

So can anyone post images of the marks (and marginalia, if any) Qrt.S has pinpointed? Citations appreciated.

As to story background, I know nothing more that is relevant than I have thus far shared.

[Qrt.S]

Mind my saying Ivan but I'm afraid I have some difficulties in understanding what you are actually trying to say. Anyway, the marks I'm referring to you will find in English Tardy on page 408. I'm not sure if I can show a picture from the book, it might violate the copyright. Maybe Admin. can advise on this? Nonetheless, those marks are not even close.

However, usually in marks like this as well as those by Ivan shown marks, the Latin figures I, II and III indicate the approximate fineness .900, .800 and.750. Please note, there are variations. The Arabic numbers in connection with Latin number (or Latin letter) usually indicates the RAO. In this case too there are variations. Anyway, I find this case interesting (but also dubious) and have continued in trying to find this swan/duck/goose mark. Unfortunately no result yet. The only swan found is the French import mark, but has nothing to do with this.

[Gligorijevic]

Qrt.S-

Good to hear from you.

Yes, you wrote:

...Post WW in 1922 the Kingdom of the Serbs, Croats and Slovens used the same hallmarks up to 1933. You will find them in connection with Yugoslavia. A new set of hallmarks was released 1933. These hallmarks were used to 2006. Unfortunately there is nothing common with these marks.

I understood you to mean that the antecedent of "these" was the "new set of hallmarks...released in 1933," the preceding sentence. That is, the new hallmarks (1933-2006) were the ones which you observed had nothing in common with the hallmark I submitted. And the hallmarks of 1922 to 1933, the period about which I referred to you as "pinpointing," were still an open question as you had not viewed them. Ha. Now I am not sure how I read it this way. At the first reading I was confused by what you meant by "the same hallmarks" (the same as which?) and just passed over it.

On rereading I believe I understand you perfectly: the hallmarks were unchanged during the period 1922 to 1933, you have seen these marks and, importantly, neither they nor the successor marks (the aforementioned new marks) match the image of the assay mark I have posted.

My apologies!

I would nonetheless be interested in viewing your page 408 of Tardy, if the Administrator permits it.

RAO is regional assay office?

I too saw the French import mark some time ago and dismissed it.

Could the mark be older still? Regardless, I am fully interested in getting to the bottom of it, veritable marks or not.

Thank you all for your assistance.

[Qrt.S]

Serbia AND Croatia AND Slovenia used common marks i.e. "the same marks". The new set 1933-> is the set you refer to where the guy is looking left. Correct assumption, they do not match. The older marks 1922-1933 show a crescent moon and a star for I:900, two crossed hammers for II:800 and III: a boar looking left and do not either match. I will show the marks immediately when Adim. admits it. Yes RAO means Regional Assay Office. If you have "ROSTFREI" marked on the blade, it is an quite obvious indication of first half of 20th century, hardly older.

[dognose]

Hi All,

As I understand it, a reproduction of a part page is permittable as fair use of copyrighted material. It is, after all, more likely to encourage sales of Monsieur Tardy's book, than discourage.

I agree with the dating of this flatware, and suspect the research of the origin is going to be geographically correct, but it must be remembered that German steel blades, like English and Swedish ones, were exported worldwide. There is, of course, always the possibility that the blades are not original, but this is unlikely bearing in mind the style of the flatware, however such styling is noted as begining to take shape as early as the turn of the century by some of the more avant garde manufacturers.

See: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=19599 and viewtopic.php?f=35&t=19419

Trev.

[Qrt.S]

Here is the old set used 1922-1933 in Serbia, Croatia....later in Yugoslavia

As you see nothing in common

[Dad]

On rereading I believe I understand you perfectly: the hallmarks were unchanged during the period 1922 to 1933, you have seen these marks and, importantly, neither they nor the successor marks (the aforementioned new marks) match the image of the assay mark I have posted.

My apologies!

I would nonetheless be interested in viewing your page 408 of Tardy, if the Administrator permits it.

Hi, Ivan.

I hope, it must to help you. Without Tardy. : http://www.dmdm.rs/cr/IstorijskiPregled.php

But I would like to see hallmarks of Croatia 1940-44

Best Reg..

[Dad]

I'm sorry, Qrt.S. I want to help.)))

[Qrt.S]

Dad, please! There is no country called "Croatia" between 1940-44. It is called The Kingdom of Yugoslavia. And what happen after WW2 we all know. Please read what I wrote about the marks. Anyway, in Ivan's link you can see the marks used in Yugoslavia after 1933 to 2006.

By the way interesting tha the pictures in Dad's link are the same as in French Tardy.

[Dad]

Dad, please! There is no country called "Croatia" between 1940-44. It is called The Kingdom of Yugoslavia.

Hi, Qrt.S.

http://www.numismondo.com/pm/hrv/index1.htm

The king was, the government was, money was. Can also hallmarks were? ))

[Gligorijevic]

Qrt.S-

Yep, common marks after the union of Serbia, Croatia and Slovenia, that much I had surmised. Also, the first half of the 20th century includes the period from 1900 to 1918--the founding of what would come to be known as Yugoslavia--and the common rule under Peter I to 1921, and these older periods I do not believe you addressed. But perhaps you feel as Jörg that circa 1920 is the starting point.

Thank you for taking the time to upload the Tardy page free of any tardy-ness!


dognose-

Thank you for the reproduction permission, submission interpretation and links. I thought of blade replacement as well, but if such were made, it would have been better than 50 years back and it seemed unlikely to me as well.


Dad-

Thank you for the link and the further estimation.


To the three of you-

Apologies for any rudimentary exposition or repetition on your parts. I am new to this!

I appreciate your attention and time.

Ivan.

[Qrt.S]

Hahahaaaa, very good Dad, please reread your history. What you showed is a puppet state created by the Nazis in 1941 and it existed in 2 years. The real King of Yugoslavia was Alexander. Unfortunately he was assassinated in 1934 and his son Peter II superseded him in cooperation with his cousin Paul. This kingdom also ceased to exist in 1943 and further on the Democratic Federal Yugoslavia was founded and as I said the rest is known. This is in brief what my history book tells me. However, I don't think that anybody cared even a rotten dime of how silver should be hallmarked in those years.

[Dad]

Hahahaaaa, very good Dad, please reread your history. What you showed is a puppet state created by the Nazis in 1941 and it existed in 2 years. The real King of Yugoslavia was Alexander. Unfortunately he was assassinated in 1934 and his son Peter II superseded him in cooperation with his cousin Paul. This kingdom also ceased to exist in 1943 and further on the Democratic Federal Yugoslavia was founded and as I said the rest is known. This is in brief what my history book tells me. However, I don't think that anybody cared even a rotten dime of how silver should be hallmarked in those years.

I am glad to your good mood.))
But.
In "a puppet state" Bohemia and Moravia there were hallmarks.
http://www.925-1000.com/foreign_marks.html

Why it not to be in Croatia?

Anyway, we have distracted from a theme. And I don't assert that it is Croatia. Only the assumption.

Best Reg..

[Joerg]

Dear all

we shall not mix themes like recognition of regimes and states and the search for the origin of a hallmark. Especially in an area with such a troubled history as the former Yugoslavians states and areas. So let us go back to the hallmark. Reading and trying to understand all replies we can eliminate most former states and territories from the former Yugoslavian state. What do we have:
The items were bought around 1960 near Beograd. This gives us a production window between 1920 and 1960. Now some speculation: I do not think they are made after 1945, Yugoslavia would not import German marked blades. If we assume the marks are genuine we have to find a territory or a regime where the marks are not published. From 1918 to 1941 I understand everything is well published. It remains the time from 1941 to 1945, and if it is unpublished, it is definitely not a regime on the winning side of WWII. What remains is the Nazi puppet regime in Croatia, or another puppet regime. And yes, I think they were busy creating their own national identity, coins, stamps, armies and probably hallmark system.
I think it is valid to ask the forum if hallmarks from the WWII Nazi puppet regimes are published, especially from the regime in Croatia?
We should search further in this direction

Regards

Jörg