Unidentified Mystery hallmarked spoon

PHOTOS REQUIRED - marks + item
cerisa
Posts: 10
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2011 2:53 pm

Unidentified Mystery hallmarked spoon

Postby cerisa » Mon Jan 17, 2011 3:04 pm

Please help. Last resort now. I have spent many hours over the last year trying to identify what type of sppon this is and where it came from.
The biggest mark on the back looks like a heart, with a letter M and the heart has wings and a crown on top
The 2nd stamp is a square with a lion kind animal face with two capital II or dots above. It is silver. There is no doubt of metal. Its just i've tried every source, read many articles. I'm just stumped now. Can anyone help?



Image
Image

oel
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Location: The Netherlands

Re: Unidentified Mystery hallmarked spoon

Postby oel » Wed Jan 19, 2011 12:57 pm

Hello Cerisa,

Better and bigger photos of the marks could solve your problem! Advise: use the macro function of your camara.

Regards,

Oel

Theoderich
contributor
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Re: Unidentified Mystery hallmarked spoon

Postby Theoderich » Thu Jan 20, 2011 3:23 am

You can also view a watchmaker lupe
stop in front of the lens of your camera.

cerisa
Posts: 10
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2011 2:53 pm

Re: Unidentified Mystery hallmarked spoon

Postby cerisa » Sun Jan 23, 2011 8:08 am

This is it. I have used a 30x21mm, and a 60x lense on it. And still unable to work out what the symbols are. The heart with wings, is the largest and thats the one i'm working on. If i can find the make, then i can find out the smaller one.
I've tried searching heart wings etc in google, antique books, antique finder. Im just stumped now.

cerisa
Posts: 10
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2011 2:53 pm

Re: Unidentified Mystery hallmarked spoon

Postby cerisa » Sun Jan 23, 2011 8:18 am

Heres some pictures take with macro & loupe in front.
Image
Image

dognose
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Location: England

Re: Unidentified Mystery hallmarked spoon

Postby dognose » Sun Jan 23, 2011 8:34 am

Hi Cerisa,

Take a look at this mark and see if bears comprasion:

Image
Upside down in your photo.

Image

Trev.

cerisa
Posts: 10
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2011 2:53 pm

Re: Unidentified Mystery hallmarked spoon

Postby cerisa » Mon Jan 24, 2011 1:50 pm

Thats it Trev, Yes it is. what is it though? OMG i am so excited now. Finally the 2 year puzzle maybe solved.

dognose
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Location: England

Re: Unidentified Mystery hallmarked spoon

Postby dognose » Mon Jan 24, 2011 2:00 pm

Hi Cerisa,

It's Portugese, the mark is from the city of Oporto and identifies the second standard of 833/1000. It was in use from 1886 until 1938.

The winged heart is likely to be the maker's mark, now that we know the piece is from Portugal, hopefully someone will identify the maker and perhaps his/her working period.

Regards Trev.

cerisa
Posts: 10
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2011 2:53 pm

Re: Unidentified Mystery hallmarked spoon

Postby cerisa » Mon Jan 24, 2011 2:26 pm

That has surprised me.

I am stumped now. The only boar head i have come accross for silver is French.
Where is this information available? have you seen it online somewhere?

dragonflywink
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Re: Unidentified Mystery hallmarked spoon

Postby dragonflywink » Mon Jan 24, 2011 2:45 pm

Most libraries will have a copy of, or can have one brought in on loan, of Tardy's International Hallmarks on Silver, with your mark illustrated - there is a wealth of information that cannot be found online.....

~Cheryl

dognose
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Re: Unidentified Mystery hallmarked spoon

Postby dognose » Mon Jan 24, 2011 3:00 pm

Here is the page from Tardy:

Image

Trev.

cerisa
Posts: 10
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2011 2:53 pm

Re: Unidentified Mystery hallmarked spoon

Postby cerisa » Mon Jan 24, 2011 4:17 pm

Thats great thank you. Tried finding a copy of the book- with no luck
In the Tardy book, does it show the heart with wings at all?

dognose
Site Admin
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Location: England

Re: Unidentified Mystery hallmarked spoon

Postby dognose » Mon Jan 24, 2011 4:58 pm

No, that's likely to be the maker's mark rather than a hallmark.

Trev.

silverport
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Posts: 870
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Location: Portugal

Re: Unidentified Mystery hallmarked spoon

Postby silverport » Tue Jan 25, 2011 11:50 am

Hello

In the last days after »dognose« had first published his assume on Porto, I've start to find that mark, which is assumed to be the maker's mark; or at least some similarity in other maker's marks.

There are a little bit more then 5,000 of them - but not one of them match; also not from other parts of the country.

I assume from this result, that it's maybe an owner's sign? But until yet I haven't find a sounded result.

But below this maybe congregation of »Heart Jesus« mark is another very tiny mark? Maybe that is a maker's mark?

I request you kindly, to make a sketch from that tiny mark, please.

Kind regards silverport

silverport
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Location: Portugal

Re: Unidentified Mystery hallmarked spoon

Postby silverport » Tue Jan 25, 2011 12:10 pm

Hello »cerisa«

Please do us another favour too:

Please let’s know the dimensions: Length, Width, and Weight.

Thank you in advance!

Kind regards silverport

cerisa
Posts: 10
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2011 2:53 pm

Re: Unidentified Mystery hallmarked spoon

Postby cerisa » Wed Jan 26, 2011 6:57 pm

Hi all, thank you for updating me. Just to let you know i will post replies and a sketch tomorrow.
Ive not forgotten- Just getting late now

Promise

Cerisa

silverport
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Location: Portugal

Re: Unidentified Mystery hallmarked spoon

Postby silverport » Sat Jan 29, 2011 6:50 pm

Hello »cerissa«

Not all is already published — and many themes would need research in local archives. That’s now one of my results of an intensive research.

The »Sacred Heart« mark is such a theme.

As I’ve already mentioned, it could be an owner’s mark — but it could be also a memory mark.

When I first enlarged the blurry files — then I had the impression, that the mark in question is a copy in miniature of a wood-cut illustration from the XVII century. That illustration has above the heart a kind of flower-pot with an implanted cross, flowering.

In between I’ve very often enlarged again, and again - but now it seems to me, for reason not being strictly in the axis of symmetries, I’ve the impression that the hart’s top is another, separate mark = maybe that is the maker’s mark? In this case it seems being placed top down?

Please would you describe also that part of this kind of combination-mark?

If the »Sacred Heart« mark is an owner’s mark, then it’s necessary to visit many archives of congregations, to find out where they’ve had cutlery in silver. This spoon could be a soup spoon, with a secret integrated marrowspoon’ at the decorative tip — or it’s a server? Yes indeed, knowing dimensions is most often very helpful.

The pattern is an Iberian pattern from around the beginning of XX century — so came up now another possibility for the signification of the »Sacred Heart« mark = maybe a memory mark?

The »Sacred Heart« mystification is more or less as old as the Christianity.

But when the Protestantism has got some importance, rose up the Counter Reformation too. It’s normal in the history of mankind that in such a kind of ‘Revolution’ are developing also new visions.

To make it short:

Just before 1900, on 25 May 1899 has the Pope León XIII published his encyclical »Annum Sacrum«, in which he stated that the human mankind of the Globe must be consecrated to the »Sacred Heart« - and that was be done by him on 11 June 1899.

To understand this metaphysical event, you must realise that on each change of centuries, there rise “prophets” — just remember the 31 December 1999 and 1 January 2000: Computer Problems where promised.

But back to Portugal:

1910 became Portugal to be a Republic — and in 1928 the Pope and Portuguese Bishops consecrated Portugal again to the »Sacred Heart«.

Maybe the »Sacred heart« mark on yours spoon is a sign, that he is being consecrated too?

The time span of the Porto Assay Office mark is 1887 until 1937 - but if yours mark has integrated near the lower right corner a little D = than it's the mark of the Porto dependency in Gondomar; their time span is from 1900 until 1913.

By the way: The ‘wings’ of the “heart” aren’t ‘wings’, but ‘rays’ or ‘flames of love’.

Kind regards silverport

cerisa
Posts: 10
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2011 2:53 pm

Re: Unidentified Mystery hallmarked spoon

Postby cerisa » Sun Feb 06, 2011 12:33 pm

<a href="http://s1001.photobucket.com/albums/af138/cerisa007/?action=view&amp;current=1.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1001.photobucket.com/albums/af138/cerisa007/1.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

cerisa
Posts: 10
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2011 2:53 pm

Re: Unidentified Mystery hallmarked spoon

Postby cerisa » Sun Feb 06, 2011 12:38 pm

cerisa wrote:<a href="http://s1001.photobucket.com/albums/af138/cerisa007/?action=view&amp;current=1.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1001.photobucket.com/albums/af138/cerisa007/1.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>


Image

Sorry wrong coding given

I had to borrow a stronger loupe from jewller to do this sketch. Its not so much like a hog now. It doesn't resembel the hogs in the pictures above. Because it doesnt have a flat back or bottom. It has spikes on top and underneath too.

cerisa
Posts: 10
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2011 2:53 pm

Re: Unidentified Mystery hallmarked spoon

Postby cerisa » Sun Feb 06, 2011 1:08 pm

I'm finding it very difficult to find the pattern/design, what it would of been used for and again the Marks on reverse are causing me confusion.
I don't even know where or how i came to have this item in my possesion.
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