Chalice with photos

[fb55chevy]

The chalice is gold on all surfaces except for the bottom of the base, which is all silver.

Is it possible that earlier markings could have been filled in with a silver substance when the Soviet markings were made? There is an area on the base that makes me wonder. I will post additional photos this weekend.

Because the profiles are turned toward the right (a practice beginning in 1927) and the chalice was taken from Tbilisi to Moscow in 1928, I am wondering if there were a connection. If the chalice had been in Tbilisi for several decades, why was the new hallmarking required?

[fb55chevy]

You mentioned gilding and the fact that the markings look gilded too. I do not understand why the photo of the bottom looked gold in the reproduction when it is a silver-gray color to the observer. What is the gilding that would have been done after the markings were made?

[Postnikov]

Hi -
First let us see the photos - everything else is pure speculation. After inspecting the photos you will get all your questions answered.

Regards
Postnikov

[silverport]

Have you made the »White calibration« of yours camera?

Hello »fb55chevy«

If an as correct as possible colour photo should be taken, then it is necessary:

That the photo is taken in »Daylight« - that mean not »Sunshine«!

Or that it is taken under artificial light with »Daylight« equivalency!

But also the (digital) camera must be »White« calibrated!

How to do that is explained in all unread manuals.

Sorry, maybe that is the reason for this discoloration?

I hope that helps you?

But remember, you’ve requested to get only answers on before shown marks.

Kind regards silverport

[fb55chevy]

I have a number of additional photos, but I will use these two to see how they turn out here.

A typed note was glued to the bottom of the chalice, stating that it was 17th century Florentine. Other papers state 14th century. Neither was ever verified.

The first two are of a vertical area near the Soviet marks that look to me like indentions that might have been filled with silver. Could other marks have been removed this way?

[fb55chevy]

Hmmm. I need some help. The photos here are not focused on the center, and they are fuzzy. My file photos are nice and clear.

[dognose]

Hi,

The images are far too large. Crop the images to remove all but the marks and then resize them.

Trev.

[Postnikov]

Hi -
the story is growing!

A typed note was glued to the bottom of the chalice, stating that it was 17th century Florentine. Other papers state 14th century. Neither was ever verified.

Please notice, that this chalice is not a handmade but an industrially manufactured, massproduced drinking vessel. Realy nothing special. So 14th or 17th ct. is a joke. The many persons involved are just curious and confusing - but there is no sense.
It is possible that the original marks were erased/grinded away (see your photo in normal size),
but I can see no added silver - it looks a little hollow - if there had been silver soldered to fill the dents up - you would see the colour difference very clearly. By the way no silversmith would do that because he knew, by heating the chalice, the silver becomes soft and there is the danger to melt the different connections (solder points).

I do not understand what you want to prove. You must know that it is a total normal pitcher, made thousand times somewhere in Germany (every bowling community, rabbit breeding club, student fraternity etc. had such chalices, all with a motto engraved - much more professional than the shown poor "scratch engraving").
Maybe it is a donation of poor Babtist believers for a poor Babtist community in Tblisi (!!), what I doubt, maybe it is just a big story for some fools to make money out of a 20 Dollar pitcher.

I am waiting for the follow-up and the solution!

Regards
Postnikov

[fb55chevy]

I believe these photos will work, and I will appreciate any information you can provide regarding the various marks on the underside of the chalice. No matter what we learn about this vessel, it holds importance to the Baptists in the Republic of Georgia who live out their faith as a minority and who have few ties to any objects from their past.

Inner edges





Exterior engraving





Poor repair of stem



Decoration on base



Underside

[fb55chevy]

Let me state clearly that the purpose of my questions was to identify when and where the chalice was made. I had hoped that the hallmarks would answer those questions. It was through rather remarkable circumstances that the chalice was located. Newspaper stories about the chalice in 1946 included information that may now be suspect (example, that it was centuries-old), and I wanted to document whatever I could about its history before returning it to Baptists in the Republic of Georgia. The value of the chalice is simply in its existence, and since Baptists have been a common people, it is not surprising that may be such a common vessel.

[Postnikov]

Hi -

what I wrote: everything was done after the chalice was bought somewhere, some times. The engraving is very poorly and unprofessional. The soldering was not done with silver but with tin - the poor man´s solder.

Conclusion (my opinion):

The chalice, made between 1890 and 1920 in Germany, with erased original marks (Why? Maybe historycal/political/personal reasons) was confiscated out of unknown reasons by the Russian (Communistic) executive and officially re hallmarked in Moscow in the years 1927 - 1946 (legalised) for the sale. The extern condition, the repair soldering with tin and the unprofessional engraving with the Latin motto "BIBITE EX HOC OMNES" - DRINK ALL OUT OF THIS - (imperativ!) is heavy used. The motto can stand for a religious community as well as for a student fraternity etc. - it depends on the roots of this chalice.
There is no financial value, maybe ideational value, if this confuse story behind the chalice is true.

Regards
Postnikov

[fb55chevy]

I would like to understand the meaning of the NW or MN, 65 or C5, and C. engravings on the bottom, if possible. Thanks.

[Postnikov]

Hi -
it is not NW or MN it is Иш = Isch (cyr.) Maybe initials, name etc. C5 = 65 ? Maybe a year?
All scratch marks are for us without sense - we do not know the meaning or the purpose - it would be speculation to see some message in it.

Regards
Postnikov

[fb55chevy]

Thanks for the clarification on the Cyrillic lettering.

Do you know what sort of tool would have been used to produce the broad scrape marks on the bottom of the base (some look like ridges)? I am curious how that was done.

Also, was it common for hallmarks to show up as raised spots on the top/good side of an object? I was surprised that they showed through to the other side.

I have learned a lot through this discussion, and I appreciate your time.

[Postnikov]

Hi -
with everything harder than silver (f.i. steal) you can make scratchmarks.

Showing stamp marks on the other side:

The silversmith made an object and all its parts (handles, lids etc) without finishing it. Than he brought all the parts to the assay office and all parts were assayed (townmark, silver content, initals of the assaymaster or state mark). The assayer knew exactly where to punch the single pieces - so you could not see the marks on first glance - on not prominent spots. Therefore your chalice was marked on the underside. After marking, the silversmith finished the object, sometimes he had to flatten the marks of the different punches on the backside. (In your case the object was already finished and was rehallmarked! So nobody cared for the punches showing on the backside). After all this done, the object was gilded, polished and sold.

Regards
Postnikov