14 loth? Help!

PHOTOS REQUIRED - marks + item
r_l_m
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Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2018 5:13 am

14 loth? Help!

Postby r_l_m » Wed Oct 14, 2020 9:15 am

Hello everyone and thanks in advance for your help! Can anyone tell me what the brand is on the photo? Which region? What period?
Image
Image

AG2012
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Re: 14 loth? Help!

Postby AG2012 » Wed Oct 14, 2020 9:53 am

Hi,
In the first place a reliable test is needed to determine whether the object is solid silver. Looks very suspicions, at least to me.
Regards

Traintime
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Re: 14 loth? Help!

Postby Traintime » Wed Oct 14, 2020 10:32 am

This thread might show you one of the reasons why there is suspicion of items marked "14" alleging to be a lothig mark: viewtopic.php?f=24&t=38472&p=124199&hilit=14+loth&sid=10d86043d2489c91fe88f2c9523da6ad#p124199

r_l_m
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Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2018 5:13 am

Re: 14 loth? Help!

Postby r_l_m » Wed Oct 14, 2020 2:13 pm

AG2012, что именно вызывает у Вас основные подозрения? 14 лот - редкость для Германии, но она существует... Вот Traintime дал ссылку на 14 лот греческого происхождения...
С уважением.

r_l_m
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Re: 14 loth? Help!

Postby r_l_m » Wed Oct 14, 2020 2:19 pm

Traintime, I didn't understand why your link should illustrate the doubts in "14" - after all, there it was confirmed by metal analysis?

r_l_m
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Re: 14 loth? Help!

Postby r_l_m » Wed Oct 14, 2020 2:21 pm

AG2012, what exactly is your main suspicion? 14 lot is a rarity for Germany, but it exists ... Traintime gave a link to 14 lot of Greek origin ...
Sincerely.

AG2012
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Re: 14 loth? Help!

Postby AG2012 » Wed Oct 14, 2020 4:05 pm

Lion rampant was very common mark in both Germany and Austria-Hungary, so its attribution without maker`s mark would be arbitrary and not very professional.
14 Loth is seldom seen.
The overall appearance points to mid 19th century or later based on both silver and glass insert.
I cannot contribute more on this piece.

Regards

r_l_m
Posts: 26
Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2018 5:13 am

Re: 14 loth? Help!

Postby r_l_m » Wed Oct 14, 2020 8:03 pm

AG2012, of course, I'm not ready to argue with your authoritative opinion, but this is what my own investigation showed "on the Internet":
(admin edit - see Posting Requirements )
The author of the lot is also not sure about the manufacturer's homeland, but names the period and believes that this is one of the German cities. If you pay attention to some of the features of fruit trays (legs) and, especially to the outline of the stamp, you will see that they are similar or even identical (see photo) ...
Image
Image

r_l_m
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Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2018 5:13 am

Re: 14 loth? Help!

Postby r_l_m » Wed Oct 14, 2020 8:11 pm

P.S. The link in the previous post for some reason does not work - here is a working link:

(admin edit - see Posting Requirements )

Yours faithfully...

r_l_m
Posts: 26
Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2018 5:13 am

Re: 14 loth? Help!

Postby r_l_m » Thu Oct 15, 2020 4:22 am

P.P.S. AG2012, I apologize - I did not know that you cannot give links to auction pages here ... The moderator removed the link and in order to convey the information found I will quote the description of the item by the author of the lot (translated from German):
"Jardiniere / silver bowl in 14 Lot / 875 silver with glass insert in Empire style.
The bowl comes from Germany around 1840-1850 and is stamped with old German hallmarks for 875/1000 silver (14 Lot) and city hallmark.
Unfortunately I cannot exactly identify the city hallmark, it could be a standing lion or a horse / unicorn. Probably Darmstadt, but it could also be Braunschweig or Schwäbisch Gmünd.
The bowl is definitely original from the time, silver is guaranteed!
Very qualitative execution!"

AG2012
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Re: 14 loth? Help!

Postby AG2012 » Thu Oct 15, 2020 5:05 am

The bowl comes from Germany around 1840-1850 and is stamped with old German hallmarks for 875/1000 silver .(14 Lot) and city hallmark



Agree with that; not Empire but later period. Fitting cut glass insert proves the authenticity. Whatever standing animal, the town mark is impossible to identify. Missing maker`s mark is not uncommon.
Regards

r_l_m
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Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2018 5:13 am

Re: 14 loth? Help!

Postby r_l_m » Thu Oct 15, 2020 5:40 am

AG2012, thank you for the attention you have given me ...
Yours faithfully...

Traintime
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Re: 14 loth? Help!

Postby Traintime » Fri Oct 16, 2020 3:03 pm

In reply to your question, the linked thread had more to do with proving the "14" mark in the face of a reasonable but unsubstantiated line of reasoning..the assumptions based on revealing the maker over time (two years from the original posting) still did not support a conclusion until a confirming test was in. That thread then can serve as proof for further examples with those marks. What you presented was strongly suggestive marks but not fully supported. The auction details are claiming a "guarantee" of silver, which would seem to support the marks, but it seems to be a subjective conclusion at their end (based on the text) from what is known by observations rathern than a test. As always, I defer to AG2012's highly expert opinion which now supports the conclusions. [There were other threads for "14", but they got into complications of things like exports from Prussia to Poland and detracted from the point of a trail-of-proofs. That's why that was chosen. It had little to do with Greek as the mark origins were covered there.] At any rate, it's a moot point now.

r_l_m
Posts: 26
Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2018 5:13 am

Re: 14 loth? Help!

Postby r_l_m » Sat Oct 17, 2020 4:33 pm

Dear Traintime, I did not quite understand the last phrase of your post: "Anyway, this is a moot point." That is, you, after all, are not completely sure that both presented fruit holders are silver? If we touch the mark "14" as such (without reference to this product), then I can give you some food for analysis from one closed (not public) site of German silver with the "mark 14" filter (see screenshot):
Image

Traintime
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Re: 14 loth? Help!

Postby Traintime » Sat Oct 17, 2020 5:37 pm

Thank you, nice samples. Moot meant the question of validity of the "14" no longer mattered as an expert (AG2012) had already come back later to confirm an opinion of authentic. All was resolved there. Congratulations.


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