French Tabatiere

[johi]

Hello

I own a little french tabatiere which I got from my family and would like to get some more Info about this lovely piece.
It's made of silver and has about 7x4x1,3 cm. The only thing I know is that it's french.
Here are some photos of the item.

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[dognose]

Hi,

To help those who may have information about your marks, can you tell us what letters you see in the first mark below?



Trev.

[legrandmogol]

I do not know the maker but I believe the Horsehead indicates it was made in France between 1795 to 1797 and is 84.3% silver. The Lady head with the E next to it means it was imported in to the Naples Italy between 1824-1832

[johi]

Hi,

To help those who may have information about your marks, can you tell us what letters you see in the first mark below?



Trev.

I have no idea what letter or sign the first mark could depict.
Until now I only recognized the horse head with the "2" and yes now that legrandmogol says it:
I should turn the lady's head upside down.

@ legrandmogol
That's very interesting. So it was french made and then delivered to Italy? But why was it imported 30 years after it's production?

[JayT]

As @dognose says, we’d need to see a clear picture of the maker’s mark in the lozenge-shaped reserve, or at the very least your take on what the initials are. This will tell you who made your tabatière.
Are both halves of the box marked?
Objects can be imported to another country any time after manufacture by an individual or a dealer.
Regards

[legrandmogol]

We can only speculate why it made it to Naples but the piece could easily have come with a Napoleanic soldier during the wars and French occupation and was later remarked for resale during the later period. That's a nice romantic way to think of its journey anyway. Mere speculation though.

[johi]

[quote="legrandmogol"That's a nice romantic way to think of its journey anyway.[/quote]

Absolutely! Thank you very much!

[johi]

As @dognose says, we’d need to see a clear picture of the maker’s mark in the lozenge-shaped reserve, or at the very least your take on what the initials are. This will tell you who made your tabatière.
Are both halves of the box marked?
Objects can be imported to another country any time after manufacture by an individual or a dealer.
Regards

Thanks, I will try to take a better image later today. No, only the top lid is marked.

[johi]

Now I got some better photos of the sign.

[img][img]https://i.ibb.co/Zc4HmWv/JHF6897.jpg[/img]
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[johi]

[JayT]

Thanks for the additional images of the maker’s mark. Unfortunately on my monitor the mark looks too worn to tell either the orientation of the initials, the initials themselves, or the symbol between. All we know at present is that the box was made in Paris after 1797. Here is how it works to research who the maker might be: the dictionary of Paris maker’s marks for that period is arranged alphabetically by first initial. There is a cross index by symbol and by full last name. There are 3,368 marks listed for the period 1798-1838. Without a first initial it would be a Herculean task to find the maker. I made a guess and looked at H, with no luck. If you could clarify what you think the first initial is, it would increase your chances of finding the maker. Otherwise, I’m out of resources to help.
Good luck!

[johi]

Yes, indeed the mark is too worn to identify it easily. Can't identify those letters beside this long winding thing and so it's hard to say where is upside or down. I watched all the images under "French Maker's Marks", but couldn't find any resemblance. Is there any other list where I can find images of french marks?
What I also ask myself: The Naples Mark is located between the Paris Mark and the Maker's Mark. Should the Naples Mark not be the latest mark that has been done, or was it usual to keep a distance between the marks? I hope you understand what i mean? I think the Italian mark should be located on the far right side for example?

Thanks
jo

[dognose]

Hi Jo,

If there was sufficient space available between the maker's and Paris marks, then this would be a convenient place to strike the Italian mark.

The device is perhaps a flame, or a pepper? A clue perhaps to the silversmith's name?

Trev.

[JayT]

Symbol also might be a bird in flight or a sheaf of wheat or a leaf or, or, or?

For this time period there are over 3,300 Paris makers. It would be a very big job to look through these without at least one clue, such as an initial.

For post-Revolutionary marks the standard list is:

Arminjon, Catherine et al. Dictionnaire des poinçons de fabricants d’ouvrages d’or er d’argent de Paris et de la Seine. v. I, 1798-1838, v. II, 1838-1875. Paris, Imprimerie nationale, 1991 and 1994.

The references above sadly are out of print, although available occasionally on the secondary market for €€€€.

[johi]

Hi Jo,

If there was sufficient space available between the maker's and Paris marks, then this would be a convenient place to strike the Italian mark.

Trev.

Yes, that could be.

Symbol also might be a bird in flight or a sheaf of wheat or a leaf or, or, or?

...or a fish.

Yes I think I'll be happy with the info I got here and that's a nice story about a journey across Europe.

Thanks & happy weekend!
jo

[clapel]

Hi
I have identified the maker's mark of your French tabatiere: Henri Edmond Carpentier, symbol blackbird.
(see Tableau Douet 1806 n° 287. Orfevre tabatiere rue Cimetiere S. Nicolas 9 Paris.)
This tabatiere is very important for the horse's head 2 mark, which is quite rare and attests that the silversmith was already registered on the first "plaque d'insculpation losangique" conserved at Tresor de la Monnaie de Paris. Congratulations

[blakstone]

I don't think Carpentier is correct. His mark is photographed in Arminjon v. I (# 01409) and it looks nothing like the mark shown here. His mark is HEC with a blackbird, with the H and E on the left and right, the C below, with the bird at the top (and not extending down between the initials as here).

[JayT]

I concur with my distinguished colleague that this is not the mark of Carpentier.

[legrandmogol]

know it is a worn and blurry mark but I agree with Trevor about the symbol. It reminds of the pepper used is by Emile Puiforcat. I know it is not his mark but I believe it is a very similar symbol.

Also could any of the French-speaking members kindly spell out phonetically how to pronounce Puiforcat?

[JayT]

Puiforcat is pronounced pwee-for-CA. You can hear the name pronounced on various pronouncing dictionaries - just ask Mr. Google. Puiforcat’s symbol is a pocket knife (un canif), not a pepper. Hope you aren’t suggesting this is his mark?