Maker NH on little mocha pot

[silverfan]

Does anybody know the maker who hides behind the initials NH. The mocha pot bears Minerva premier titre. On the Internet site of the French goverment I could not find this mark.
Regards silverfan

[JayT]

Is the Minerva head from Paris or the provinces? The maker could be either N.H. or H.N.

[silverfan]

Thanks JayT. I cannot recognize if it is Paris or departments, because the Minerva is worn. Because of the position of Minerva and maker's mark I think it is clearly NH and not HN. Do know this maker?
Regards silverfan

[JayT]

After checking the reference for Paris makers - Arminjon v.I and II - your maker doesn’t appear. This is why I asked about the Minerva.
Good luck in your continuing research on your pot!

[silverfan]

Hello JayT and all,
here a new attempt (old post in "Single Image") with new photos of the mocha pot and its marks. I could clearly recognize the 1 near the forehead (therefore Paris). Is it possible that there are letters or digits under the chin too?
Regards silverfan

[blakstone]

With the new images, the mark is clearly "BN" with a chalice (inverted in the photo). There also appears to be a différent under Minerva's chin, indicating a provincial assay office (though again, it is not clear enough to say for sure).

I'm not sure where this idea came from that the standard numerals (1 & 2) are located in different places in the Paris and Provincial 1838-1973 Minerva marks, though I've seen it repeated more than once. The "1" is ALWAYS located in front of her forehead for the first standard Minerva, whether the mark is the Paris or a provincial office - it is the provincial assay office différent that is located under her chin (the absence of such a mark indicating the Paris office). These positions are reversed in the second standard Minerva, with the numeral "2" under her chin and the différent (if any) in front of her forehead. (Again, this was the case only for the Minerva used 1838-1973; it changed after that.)

[silverfan]

Thanks blakstone. The idea that "the standard numerals are located in different places" probably comes from Tardy 5th Edition English language (2005 Reprint) page 199: " For the Departments the head of Minerva is shown without the lock of hair; the mint-mark (Nos. 1 and 2) is placed under the chin for the first Standard, near the forehead for the second Standard and between the lower claws of the crab for the lower guarantee".
If I understand you well it is actually possible that there is 1 near the forehead and "the provincial assay office différent (?) under the chin".
I could not recognize this "différent?" under the chin but there is something. Is it possible that there are two signs?
So when there is 1 near the forehead and another sign under the chin it is Minerva for the departments and then I know it is difficult to find a maker when the department is unknown.
Under a magnifying glass I could see that it is a H not a B though on the photo it looks like B; the initials must read HN or NH.
Regards silverfan

[blakstone]

The "différent" and mint mark are the same thing: a device (astronomical symbol, archaic letter, etc.) unique to each assay office. This mark is placed under the chin in the first standard Minerva and in front of the forehead of the second standard Minerva. It's absence indicates the Paris assay office.

The English translation of Tardy is a bit clumsy. If you omit the parenthetical "(Nos. 1 and 2)" the sentence reads: "the mint-mark is placed under the chin for the first Standard, near the forehead for the second Standard" which is correct. I think the "(Nos. 1 and 2)" means "(in the first and second standards)".

I still think it is very clearly "BN", and I note that there is maker in Lyon (the second-largest French silver-producing city after Paris) Berger - Nesme, whose mark was "BN" with a chalice, used 1889-1924. The différent/mint-mark for Lyon was an Arabic medial "m", which looks (in French marks, anyway) like a tiny lozenge with two long lines sticking each side.

[silverfan]

Thanks again blakstone, if Paris or departments now is clear for me ( a Minerva from the Departments I did not find in Munich up to now).
Where can I find that mint mark of the Assay Office of Lyon ("Arabic medial "m") in the Internet? (just to compare with the mark on the Mocha pot!)
When looking for BN or HN (Berger/Nesme) I was surprised to find on Mr. Busetto's site silvercollection.it that they used the initials HN too:
1. for Hernry Nesme 1924-1964
2. for Nesme & Ollagnier (but description "un calice entre B et N!?)
3. for Henri Ollagnier fils ca.1950-1964.
Regards silverfan

[Traintime]

Just adding a link to department cypher charts (and comments on): viewtopic.php?f=7&t=24082&p=57987&hilit=Departments+french#p57987

[silverfan]

Thanks very much, Traintime. The sign for the department did not change when the department number changed? So the sign for Lyon remained the same from 1798 -1920?
Regards silverfan

[blakstone]

That's correct - the sign did not change (with some very minor exceptions as offices and/or territories were moved or combined). Although I've never seen it stated, I think it is a reasonable assumption that the switch from department number to a symbol in the marks was precisely because of the confusion caused by the constantly changing department numbers during the Empire and Restauration,