Unusual mark

[blonde_minx]

Hi
I believe this box to be french, well hopefully it is, the two hallmarks together make me think it is but then the mark inside the lid i just cant work out at all, ive added a few of the same mark at different angles hoping it would help identify the mark.
thanks in advance
Mandy

[AG2012]

Hi,
Yes, it is French.Minerva head for .950 and Mercury (smaller mark in an oval) used for export on French made small silver (both after 1838).The third mark could be countermark insect from bigorne (two-horned anvil)
Regards

[blonde_minx]

Hi

Thanks for your help, i thought it was French but didnt know the silver standard or what the other mark may have been

Kindest regards

[Smokanabeach]

Hi,

Following AG2012 answer:

''In order to prevent and detect fraud of hallmarked silver articles, French authorities instituted, by Ordinance of 1st July 1818, a system of countermarks on the opposite side of the guarantee mark. These countermarks are known as "bigornes".

The term bigorne literally means two-horned anvil or two-beaked anvil and refers to the shape of the projecting ends of the anvil. Each anvil has two striking areas, one flat and one of rounded shape. The rounded horn served to mark hollowware and the flat horn was used to mark flatware.''

Regards,

Don Smoka

[Aguest]

Is it possible that the Minerva hallmark is actually French made for Export hallmark and the other hallmarks are Ottoman Empire Tugra kinds of hallmarks? I don’t recall ever seeing bigorne marks like these before. Could the other hallmarks be associated with some other country within the Ottoman Empire?

[Traintime]

Not cast doubt on anyone's conclusions, but since the words "could be" were used it might help to note the exact position of the inner mark in relation to the outer ones. There is a bigorne thread with surviving photos of three samples that the moderators (if they feel it's necessary) can probably place here for comparison to avoid jumping back & forth through links. (No, I don't see any ferns, bushes, or christmas trees.)

[Smokanabeach]

My opinion is AG2012 already gives you the good answer. The bigorne is the Scarabéa. But as said by Traintime, if a doubt is still remaining, please just confim that this ''special'' mark is exactly positionned on the other side on the Minerva and the matter will be solved...

[JayT]

Hello
Agree with @Aguest that the unidentified mark is that of country other than France, likely the Ottoman empire. It is certainly not a bigorne mark.
The Minerva head has been carefully obliterated (see the cross-hatching), which tells me the country to which it was exported (as indicated by the Mercury head mark), then stamped with its own mark.
Best regards
JayT

[AG2012]

Where is exactly the unidentified mark in relation to obliterated Minerva`s head mark ?
Is it opposite to Minerva`s head (exactly on the other side or unrelated to it) ?
It is not Ottoman tughra,either.
Regards

[Aguest]

I see the fine detail now, I should have magnified, of course it is bigorne and the box is in very good condition as well :

[Aguest]

The reason I didn't think it was a bigorne is because it seems to lack the extremely fine details I have noticed on other bigorne hallmarks :::: However, seeing as how these are the smallest bigorne hallmarks I have ever seen, perhaps there just wasn't room enough to provide the fine details (for instance, each and every hair on the insect's foot can often be discerned) and so it just resembled a mark from somewhere else (Ottoman?) ::