18 century french silver tray

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antiquv
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Joined: Fri May 05, 2017 6:51 am

18 century french silver tray

Postby antiquv » Sat Dec 16, 2017 5:58 am

Hello
i have this 18 century french ? silver tray, it is 11 inch in length and i think the hallmarks are french
I wanted to ask if anyone can help me to know if they are realy french
Image

Image

dognose
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Re: 18 century french silver tray

Postby dognose » Sat Dec 16, 2017 6:27 am

Hi,

See: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=49322

Always embed your images, very few members will click on thumbnails.

Trev.

antiquv
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Joined: Fri May 05, 2017 6:51 am

Re: 18 century french silver tray

Postby antiquv » Sat Dec 16, 2017 6:42 am

i did not understand if it is french or german pseudo marks ?

AG2012
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Re: 18 century french silver tray

Postby AG2012 » Sat Dec 16, 2017 8:23 am

Hi,
Not French.Not documented in Hanau, either.Still unsolved.

Aguest
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Re: 18 century french silver tray

Postby Aguest » Sat Dec 16, 2017 11:43 pm

In the shield hallmark, it looks to me like a pair of crossed crab-legs, which combined with the "CROWNED P" seems to point to Portugal, so I understand the possible Portuguese connection, or possibly a Portuguese hallmark such as Brazil....

However, when I had these hallmarks on an armorial charger (a large silver tray with a coat-of-arms on it), and I showed them to the silver expert of a leading auction house, she said her opinion was that it was an unidentified German Hanau silver maker. In Hanau, as I understand it, there were extremely forgiving silver hallmark laws, and many Hanau silver pieces did not go to the assay office to receive the proper "crescent moon" and other stamps which would be marked on a piece of silver submitted for assay to the assay office......

So, in the opinion of one expert, your hallmarks are unidentified Hanau Germany pseudo-marks; your silver tray did not make it to the German assay office to receive the official German hallmarks of the time, circa 1880 or so....

oel
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Re: 18 century french silver tray

Postby oel » Sun Dec 17, 2017 2:40 am

http://www.925-1000.com/Fgerman_marks_a1884.html

The crescent moon and crown was self applied by the maker and or retailer. No assay office was involved and you can find many variations of the crescent moon and crown. This manufacturer-applied mark personally guarantees the silver item to be a minimum standard of 800 fine and it is a requirement of every registered manufacturer of precious metal items to stamp the item with a fineness mark, the national German silver mark and their maker's mark.
Hanau:
http://www.ascasonline.org/articolo13.html
http://www.ascasonline.org/articolox15.html

Aguest
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Re: 18 century french silver tray

Postby Aguest » Sun Dec 17, 2017 12:47 pm

I understand, my mistake, the marks were not applied by an assay office.

I find it strange that the marks so closely resemble either French or Portuguese hallmarks, it really creates some confusion there.

Surely the Hanau silver makers would have known that their hallmarks were so extremely close to the "CROWN OVER P" hallmarks of Portugal and France?

Aguest
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Re: 18 century french silver tray

Postby Aguest » Sun Dec 17, 2017 12:50 pm

One more thing, could it be that the fineness on these objects is slightly below 800 (such as 750 standard), and this would then free the manufacturer from stamping the crescent moon and other appropriate hallmarks?

I have noticed that some Hanau silver is 750, is it not?

AG2012
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Re: 18 century french silver tray

Postby AG2012 » Sun Dec 17, 2017 4:46 pm

Hi,
``Reichsmark`` (crescent and crown) was often omitted regardless of silver fineness.In a word, there is no parallel between .750 and lack of Reichsmark.
You are right about fantasy marks.Silversmiths just loved crowned letters (and lions,too).
Regards

oel
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Re: 18 century french silver tray

Postby oel » Mon Dec 18, 2017 3:26 am

Hanau had special privileges and started to use marks seemingly similar to Paris stamps but deviating in details
from Eighteenth century Hanau gold boxes
By Lorenz Seelig. See:

viewtopic.php?f=21&t=15885

Peter.


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