Unidentified markings on silver ciborium

[KathyC]

My church has a ciborium that we're trying to date. The parish was founded in 1699 by French Jesuit missionaries from Canada, so it could be quite old. Or it could be a lot newer than that; we just don't know. Any help identifying a possible date and place of origin would be greatly appreciated.

[Theoderich]

it is not german
it is french or Belgian

[oel]

Hi,

Could you please provide us with some better and clear enhanced images of the marks? Thanks.

Oel.

[JayT]

This is a very interesting find. The style and marks appear to be French from the first quarter of the eighteenth century. The ciborium is so dirty (was it stored in a gas heated building?) that it is hard to tell exactly, although I have a possible attribution for the maker.

Please look carefully all over the object, particularly around the rim of the cup and on the base of the foot for a discharge mark which will be smaller than the other 3 marks. Also, is the cover marked?

If the church allows it, my input would be to wash the ciborium in a solution of phosphate-free dish liquid, rubbing very gently with a clean, soft cotton cloth, rinse, and then dry immediately with another cloth. This will get rid of built-up grime, but will leave the heavy tarnish alone for the time being.

To clean up the marks you could then use a bit of de-natured alcohol (plain rubbing alcohol) on a 100% cotton swab, rubbing the marks very gently and then rinsing in clear water immediately.

Please do not get all energetic about polishing the ciborium or poking at the marks with toothpicks, pins, etc. until you have a better idea of what you have. Whatever you do, never, ever be tempted to use a dip-type product to clean this item.

[KathyC]

JayT,
Thank you for the heads up about other areas to check for marks. I did find more...on the underside of the lid, on the lip of the lid, on the edge of the cup and another on the bottom that I missed originally. I'll get permission from the church, and then clean according to your directions and post additional pictures. And you're correct, it has been stored in a gas-heated building.

Thanks very much!

[JayT]

Hello KathyC -
Looking forward to seeing the other marks you have discovered. Good luck with your preliminary cleaning job. It will take a lot of patience to go slowly and gently. Gas heating results in that iridescent black on silver - a real chore to deal with.

[KathyC]

Here are photos of some additional markings I just discovered (with assistance!) I haven't cleaned it yet, so I hope they are clear enough. The first is on the inside of the lid.


This is on the side of the lid. It's very dark, so I don't know if it will be of help.


This is on the lip of the cup.


This is also on the lip of the cup.


This last one was also found on the bottom. Again, it's quite dark.

[JayT]

Thanks for additional images of the marks. All I’ll venture at this time is that the crowned A charge mark and crowned G date mark on the ciborium’s cover match those marks under the base, indicating that the lid is likely original to the object (considered a good thing). When the marks are a bit cleaner, they’ll reveal more.

[Francais]

I saw this posting and shortly after it was posted and, still last week, sent an email to the leading expert on the subject, Robert Derome, Personally I had no trouble reading the marks in the first photo, so I thought he would be interested in hearing about another piece by Testard dating from 1700.
So the marks shown in the first photo are:

Charge mark of 1697- 1704 Adrien Vanier & Pierre Perrine The A has a cross bar which is on the left a scepter terminating with a Fleur de LYs, and the right side terminates in a hand of justice.
Letter (maison commune) mark G for 1700-01
Maker’s mark of Toussaint Testard master 1682 died 1716
l’île de la Cité, Paris
He made primarily liturgical silver other pieces North America
a ciborium 1688 in Quebec City, a altar crucifix 1703 in Sainte Anne de Beaupré
an ostensoir in Saint Joachim, and I think perhaps a piece in an unpublished collection but I can’t find my notes.

Subsequently the other marks were shown.

Following up the source this week, I determined that on the lower outside rim was a discharge mark shown in Tardy with the above mentioned charge mark: a ducal crown with a lizard below.

There is also another mark on the upper lip of the bowl. Although not a great strike it is evidently the mark listed in Tardy, same page in the French version, described as a 1687-91 control mark.
But this mark is also described in another work, more accurately I believe, as a discharge mark for the 1694-1703 period for middle sized works not charged.

Of course the piece is made in more than two pieces, and has Testard's mark all over it, literally and figuratively. It is also gilt all over.

I presume KathyC will post more photos, when time allows.
Maurice