A pair of flower stands... help to ID mark

[rynegold]

So I've put these here as they seem "French"... I don't know where else to start so if they're from elsewhere, mods please move me to where I belong. My questions are, what do you actually call these? what is their country of origin? and how do they rate among collectors, if they rate at all? They are 13.5 inches tall and weigh a hefty 28 troy ounces each.

regards, mitch

[imgDSC08847

[img][img]https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3898/14370063626_e172d252fa.jpg[/img]DSC08848

[imgDSC08853

[WarrenKundis]

Good evening Mitch,

What you appear to have is a French bigorne or countermark, does each vase for the lack of a better term, have the same mark. On the opposite of that mark there should be another mark, most likely a Minerva head. We have homework for you, please read through this fine article on bigorne and other French marks. Please look carefully, there should be at least one other mark if not more.

The Bigorne mark on French silver: an article for ASCAS-Association of Small Collectors of Antique Silver website
http://www.ascasonline.org/articoloAPRI145fING.html

Enjoy
Warren

[rynegold]

Thanks Warren! I'd never seen that ASCAS site before... very nice; I'm going to join. Yes; both have this same mark. So I've looked everywhere I can think to look for Minerva's head as I suspected it to be somewhere's as well, and find nothing. Not even a buffed down area where it "might" have been. I'm a jeweler by trade and have every kind of magnification known to man at my disposal but to no avail. How could that be? That these pieces escaped the mark? They are such nice quality work. Or is the mark I show in the pic actually the "Minerva's head" and what's missing is the maker's mark? I've asked the ASCAS folks to forward my pix and message to Robert Massart who wrote that article. I looked at all the available maker's marks on http://www.Silvercollection .it and found no matches either. None the less, they are nice pieces no?

A better pic:

[WarrenKundis]

Good morning Mitch,

As you read the article as a jeweler you understand how the bigorne was created. That Minerva mark should be exactly on the opposite side from where the bigorne sits. Is possible that the other mark was rubbed out but I don't think so. Besides since the mark is created by the force of the blow in striking the Minerva they can be very rough. That's why I asked if both marks on both vases are the same. Does not seem possible but not impossible if struck by the same hand.

The lozenge or diamond shape of the cartouche was throwing me off but after reviewing the article it did seem possible when looking at some the first examples there that it could have a distinct edge. But in reality the lozenge is one of the distinct shapes that can identify a French 800 and 900 grade silver silversmith. It's not universal or unique but since there is no Minerva it is more likely the case.

Now let me go back and have a better look at this mark/s to see if one of us can identify it. The burning question remains, where are the other marks?

Good luck
Warren

[WarrenKundis]

Mitch,

Look at the two mark examples you posted. It is the same insect but one mark has an additional leg clearly protruding out, on the other it's just a flat line. See the hairs covering the leg.

How common was or is it for jewelers and/or others to rub out marks they considered obtrusive to the design?

W

[rynegold]

I've added seven additional pix of the 2nd vase... the cartouche is a little better on this one so have a look:

slideshow...

https://www.flickr.com/photos/19089828@N00/sets/72157645060206986/show/



And there's shots of all three areas of the bottom where there "could be" a stamp... and it just isn't there! On either one of them. There are some #s but that's just most likely the last digits of a driver's license or a social sec.# in case of theft.

[Zilver2]

Good evening,
The mark you show in the last picture is in fact the maker's mark of the manufacturer silversmith and jeweller Emile Delaire, 20 passage d'Angoulème, Paris.
N° de garantie : A9532
N° de préfecture : 9845
Symbol : a woman’s head with a steel helmet (une tête de femme avec un casque en acier)
Activity period : 1822-1920
Regards

[rynegold]

Zilver2... a big thank you to ya!

If your familiar with this maker, can you say if these are uncommon/desireable items? or something seen often for the period? 1822 to 1920 is almost 100 years... so I take it the business was passed down through the family? I don't know much about French silver or makers but these "look" like something from the 19th century rather than the 20th. Do you have a clue why there's no "Minerva's head" on these items? I can find no such mark or, where one might have been removed.

Regards, mitch

[rynegold]

The mark....



and another...

http://poulbenn.dyndns.org/images/PowderSilverBox5.jpg

(admin photo edit - images too large - link only - see Posting Requirements )


Thanks again, Warren and I were seeing an insect! I'd have never guessed a "helmeted woman"!

Regards, mitch

[Zilver2]

Sorry Mitch, but I do not see any bigorne mark on your pictures and, ... no bigorne mark means no Minerva mark. I only see several pictures of the maker's mark.
Regards

P.S. : I am not particularly familiar with the maker and cannot provide you with more info regarding him.

[rynegold]

So therefore, a "consumer/buyer" from the period would have to rely on just a maker's mark alone to make sure it was silver? In reading that article, it looks like the bigorne marks were used through 1846 but then what? When did they stop using them? And, why would there be no mark at all on pieces like these to confirm that they're sterling?

[WarrenKundis]

Yes this mark really turned it to be a contradiction in terms.

Appeared to be a bigorne insect but without a right facing Minera 1 or 2 on the opposite side made no sense. Second item, the lozenge cartouche pointed to a possible makers mark. What looked like insect parts turned out to be the top of the helmet or helmet plum of a left facing man with the other squiggles below being a lower case e and d.

Still begs the question; where are the other marks? Were they rubbed out or filled in at some point? Was this a period in time when they were not required? The lozenge cartouche does generally indicate 800 or 900 grade silver. Silver-plate markers marks tend to be more rectangular or square.

Mitch let's see if someone can fill in the blanks. Thanks Zilver2 for the identification of the silversmith.

Warren

[oel]

Hi,

Silver vases made during the ‘Belle époque (Beautiful Era)' 1868-1914:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belle_%C3%89poque
Made in a style based on; Japonism (Japonesque / Japonaiserie), undulating movements or neo-Louis XV - Neo-Rococo.
Made in France for export, most probably to Belgium, as of 1869 hallmarking in Belgium was no longer obligatory.
http://www.modernsilver.com/marchupdate ... Freres.htm

Best,

Oel.

[WarrenKundis]

Excellent Oel thank you so much.

Now that you mention an Asian motif in a tripod form it reminded me of Tang dynasty bronzes. Found an example listed as "Bronze ritual tripod wine vessel, JUE. Late Shang Dynasty, 12th-11th century BC."
This piece also has a somewhat similar form at the top as a spot.

A fine piece.
Warren

[rynegold]

Warren, Zilver2 and Oel; may I ask when you think these might have been made? The "Belle Epoque" period seems to have run right up to the end of the 19th and on into the 20th so were they made possibly that late? Seems by then they would have had to stamp the Minerva's head on them unless as you say, Oel, that perhaps these were for export.

Just curious... I'm just glad to know who made them!

regards and thanks to you all...
mitch

[oel]

Hi Mitch, you are welcome.

Made by a French silversmith, turn of the 19th century-early 20th century


Oel.

[dognose]

Hi All,

Just another possible few reasons for the lack of hallmarks:

Stolen on route to the assay office, or from the premises of the silversmith.
Failure to pass assay (I'm not sure of the policy used in French assay offices, some countries broke items, I believe others just returned them).
The items were for the silversmith's own use.
A private agreement between the silversmith and customer (to avoid taxes).
The items were required urgently (the customer, unwilling to wait for assay, persuades the silversmith to let him have the items, perhaps with a promise to return them for assay, but.....).

There will, I'm sure be others.

Items such as these pieces would have sent to assay office prior to the chasing been applied (to minimise the loss to the silversmith should the item fail assay), there is always the possibility that the hallmarks were flattened and lost in the chasing?

Trev.

[oel]

Hi All,

Agree with Trev's reasons herewith another example of missing French hallmarks see:
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=17728


Best,

Oel.

[WarrenKundis]

Trev and Oel thank you for that further clarification.

Allow me to clarify my own comments here by saying that the particular shape of the lozenge cartouche for the makers mark is not in and of itself a guarantee of silver content but was used in conjunction with proper assay marks. Was also not aware that can pay a fee to have current assay marks applied once they have been assayed and/or tested by the regulatory office involved. Would that be true in most countries that require assay marks?

Warren

[oel]

Hi Warren,

Yes in the Netherlands we can but not for a full set of hallmarks ( assay office, date letter, standard mark), the Z marks only unless you are registered with a maker's/importers mark (responsibility mark) and have marked the object with this particular responsibility mark.
For more info see the English version of:
http://www.waarborg.nl/keuren/tekens-en ... ens-zilver
http://www.waarborg.nl/
http://www.waarborg.nl/over-waarborghol ... drijfsfilm

For more information see:
viewtopic.php?f=24&t=27119&p=66269&hilit=waarborg#p66269

Oel.