Help with these maeks

[blonde_minx]

Hi could anyone shed any light on these marks
Thanks

[JayT]

Here is what I can see clearly:
a date letter crowned P for Paris 1784; a charge mark crowned A in use 1783-1789; the maker's mark CLG something?? If you can sharpen the focus on your photo of the marks, I could help with the maker. Is there a discharge mark on the object?

[silverfan]

The upper left mark CLC (or G) is the maker's mark (Francais will know), the mark down left is Paris Maison Commune 1784 (there must be the number 84) and the mark down right is the Charge mark Paris from 1783 on.
Regards silverfan

[WarrenKundis]

Actually the 4 letters with crown appear to be starting from the 9 o'clock position: L C C D. Does that make any sense? The mark below that appears to be a crowned fleur-de-lys. Using my old iPad to expand the image.

Warren

[blonde_minx]

Hi
Thank you for your help i will try to get a sharper image of the marks

Best wishes

[blonde_minx]

Hi Hopefully these marks will be a little sharper, i have also found another mark which i have added, this other mark is on the lid and also the body, could anyone tell me what this pot was used for
Thanks again
Mandy

[Francais]

Nothing like coming to a party late, everyone else is drunk and your sober.
In this case everything has been figured and typed out, except the last mark which is the décharge mark for 1783-86.
Unfortunately I don't recognize, nor can I find the maker. The problem is that it is impossible to know what order to read the letters in, added in my dyslexia, I can't find it. It may not be a listed mark, as this is not the most stable period in France.
I tried an on-line search with the most likely order, nothing. If no one else can find it I will try again later.

Your last pictures were quite nice.
Maurice

[blonde_minx]

Hi Maurice, Thanks for your input, do you have any idea what this pot may have been used for
Thanks
Mandy

[Francais]

I guess a size would help, but if it is a 2-3 inches high then I would say it is a sander. To sprinkle sand on an ink signature as a drying agent.
They are often part of an ink stand along with a taper stick, and inkwell. I would have to see a lot more pictures especially of the base, to see if it fit into something, even then it would just be a guess.
These also were sold as stand alone items, and of course traveling boxes.
If no one finds the maker, I would lean slightly towards a stand alone item, or because of its relative plainness a traveling box, since a small worker's mark might be less likely to be listed.
A weight would be nice to know too.
Maurice

[JayT]

Thank you for the crisp photo of the maker’s mark. French maker’s marks are generally read top to bottom, left to right — in this case CLGD. Unfortunately I can’t find the maker in Nocq or my other sources. As has been stated, the last mark is the discharge mark for medium-sized objects, used from 1783-1789. There is good concordance between all marks.

This object is called un saupoudoir, used to hold either powder for the hair or face or sand for drying ink. It would be helpful to give its dimensions. Because the body is without decoration I believe it was originally fitted into a travel case called un nécessaire de voyage. The pattern on the top is called marguerites, or daisy, using B. Kenber’s typology of 18th C French pierced work.

[blonde_minx]

Hi, I would just like to thank you all for the wonderful informative response's, it is so interesting, i have measured the pot and it stands 2 1/2 inches tall, and is 5 cm diameter , its weight is 60 grams,
Thanks
Mandy

[Francais]

I guess I need to correct the penultimate response.
First of all while initials are most commonly read top to bottom and left to right, as almost anyone should guess, They are also sometimes read left to right and top to bottom. So in this case I would probably start with CLGD I wold also try other combinations although I obviously would not try starting with D or G. Then you have the problem of compound last names, so Legarde might be L or LG. The later is often the case with 4 letter marks. Then there is the possibility that some letters have nothing to do with the name, but are symbols. For example another post had a mark beginning with N but it was not part of the name, but a Napoleonic N a symbol.

I believe my dates for the last mark are correct 1783-86 as from 1786 -1789 the mark should have been a birds head.
I should also explain the item COULD be called a saupoudoir or at least a dozen other names including ones for powdered sugar, hair powder, or sand. I chose the word sander as I thought that is the most likely choice, and easily understood. If it were still in a nécessaire its original intended use could perhaps be determined. On top of that it could have been used as different things at different times. I guessed the size was too small for sugar, except for a very small service, the same for hair powder. Also hair powder went out of use far before sand. As far as nomenclature a sander could be called a poudrier, boite à poudre, boite à sable, poudrier de bureau, or my favorite sablier d'écritoire. Whenever you use a term in French another French person will use a different word. So if you go into a French restaurant and you order a carafe of plain tap water, the waiter will use a different word, if you say carafe, he will say, pichet, if you say pichet, he will say car d'eau.
So I say sander, if there is such a word, as ink stand parts are generally easier to sell than hair powder containers or individual powdered sugar shakers.
As an aside, I really don't mind being corrected. That's how we learn, but when I am constantly "corrected" and the correction is just another opinion, and wrong to boot, I find it a waste of time. I would ask those who want to correct me, double check, to see if you are right. Please. Instead of wasting my time writing this I could have tried to find the mark.

Maurice

[AG2012]

A pounce pot (or sprinkler).

[Francais]

I spent a little more time on this, but with little success. I guess I should point out something. No one mentioned what was odd about the maker's mark, besides having 4 letters. There is no fleur de lys, although as I have often said there are few solid rules in French silver, the usual thing for Paris marks is the crowned fleur de lys, two pellets, a symbol and letters. One explanation is that the maker, started his career somewhere else. Also 4 initials often means a combined last name. The last name could be G-D or D-G. The later seems more likely, so what might the name be? My bet for C-L would be Charles Louis, my bet for D-G would be De or Du and Gxxx. There was a minor silversmith whose name was C.Louis Dugournay in Paris at the end of the 18th c. but for a number of reasons he seems unlikely. Still if the search were extended beyond the Paris region, it might be more fruitful. Otherwise I give up.
Maurice

[WarrenKundis]

Allow me to suggest a few other combinations as in

LG & CD
CD & LG

Now the .C. at the top isolates that letter on some level, does it create LDG as another possibility? Then what would the C stand for? Maurice suggested a symbol, very possible. The city where he or they worked? Could that symbol be an early attempt at trademark? LG & CD et Cie???

W

[Francais]

I hope I didn't open the flood gates. C could be a symbol, but my first choice would be letter, and the first letter of the name.
CD seems unlikely to me, but I would never say impossible or never seen as any book by Helft will show a multitude of possibilities. I am doubtful about Cie. I would think that is a 19th c. invention, but I am open to being proved wrong.
I think the point made is "rules we don't need no stinking rules".
Maurice

[AG2012]

Indeed, there were few French masters with four letter marks. If so, one should read clockwise starting with the letter on the left. Compare with Jean Baptiste Claude Odiot (H.Boulhet).
Unless top C does not belong to the name at all.

[Francais]

Again I disagree one way may be more common than another, but no rule is absolute, besides your example is post revolution.
Also last names like Duguay etc can written with the last tow initiales either way. But feel free to try to find a LCGD, I think I already did.
Maurice