Help identify sugar tongs

[Ubaranda]

Hi all!
I have nice French sugar tongs. I suppose it was made in 1798-1809 years by maker Joseph Desailly but I don't sure... And what are the numbers "6" and "9" on guarantee mark?
I will be grateful for any help

[Francais]

I am afraid you are reading the mark wrong. French marks have to be exactly the same as those shown.
If you look at the center of the mark on yours it is something long, on the one you found on line it is a pellet.
The marks shown on the government site are after a certain date and mostly recent. The 69 on you tongs denote the department (not Paris). Unfortunately they changed the numbers on the departments three times. I have never seen a list of the numbers for 1798-1809, there may be one, but I don't think it is available on line. The list in Tardy is too late for your item.
I know of some of them, but only recognize the areas that are of interest to me. There are perhaps 20-30 regional 18th c. books for the French departments or cities. They are sometimes quite expensive. Often at the end of the old regime marks they list post 1798 marks, but rarely picture more than a few. I am telling you this because to look up the mark, you would first have to be lucky enough to know which department 69 is, then you would have to find someone with that book (I have maybe 12), then you would have to be lucky enough to have the mark shown. I had made up a list of the numbers I had run across, but it is not where I thought it should be. If no one else recognizes the department, you might check back after a while, just in case I find my list.
Maurice

[blakstone]

From 1798-1809, "69" was the number of the Département of Nord, whose primary assay office was in Lille, with satellite offices in Valenciennes and Dunkerque. Unfortunately, I don't have the Lillois or Flemish provincial references Francais alluded to.

[Ubaranda]

Hi Francais ! Hi blakstone!
Thank you both for your replies! I understand that you agree that this is 1798-1809 years, but Maurice thinks I incorrectly identified the master? It's most suitable mark... And another question: what is the silver fineness?
Best regards. Alex.

[Francais]

There should be another mark on the piece, a coq or rooster. That tells the fineness.
While we are at it, Blakstone, do you have a list of the department numbers for this time period, or are you just going off of experience.
I also do not have a book for that area.
Maurice

[Ubaranda]

Yes, I found mark with a cock and the number "2", i.e. 800 fineness silver.
Many thanks for help. Alex.

[Zilver2]

Hi,
Wikipedia publishes a list of the French departments at the culmination of the first French Empire in 1811.
130 departments (including the Flemish departments; excluding the Spanish departments) are listed.
Spanish departments from 1812-1813 were Bouches-de-l'Elbe (capital Lérida), Montserrat (capital Barcelone), Sègre (capital Puigcerda), Ter (capital Gérone)
Spanish departments in 1813 : Bouches-de-l'Elbe-Montserrat (capital Barcelone), Sègre-Ter (capital Gérone)
Kind regards

[Francais]

This might be getting a little off subject, but it is interesting all the same. Wikipedia has an interesting article on the departments, and the way their number changed, etc. The system itself is interesting and today quite useful, although sometimes difficult to understand. I remember a wooded puzzle toy with the numbers of each department and its shape, the object being you put them all back in the right place.
But the lists which I was talking about, which I eventually found where I stuck them in a book, are the numbers assigned to the different departments for each period 1798-1809, 1809-1819, and 1819-1838. They to some extent correspond to today's number of the department. So for instance Ain was number one on all three lists, and is currently the same number. But as you go down the list the numbers changed from each period. I have over the years collected Strasbourg silver, so I had to remember that the number for Strasbourg was originally 78 then 82 then 65. Today the departments number is 67, so all zipcodes in the area start with 67xxx. I might have just caused some more confusion, but the lists we are talking about are the numbers assigned to the the different departments in the first period it is found on a bearded man facing forward, then a soldier with a helmet (almost never legible), and finally on a bearded man facing left (Socrates).
Maurice