Six questions to a pre-revolutionary plate

[Joerg]

Dear Forum Members

I found this French Plate on a flea market. French silver is not my specialty, so I need help and advice.
I found out the following: French, pre-revolutionary, from Paris. Bearing the “charge” mark “A” used from 1783 to 1783. It also has the “decharge” mark for large objects. The plate has a weight of 835 gramm, a diameter of 30 cm and is rather thick.

First question: Can you help me with the maker? The mark bears an anchor, left a “P”, right a “J”, below a “L”

Then: The mark “maison de la commune” is worn. Do you agree it is the mark for 1787? (My reference, Tardy, French 22. Edition, page 134)

Then, any guess for the meaning for “LE TOM” and the identification of the family crest?

Then, the picture with the fault on the backside of the rim: Do you think this is a material error or is this a mark applied in a previous manufacturing stage which was hammered over during finishing the item?

Further, I am surprised how heavy and thick the plate is. So much silver for one plate, and according to the crest the owner is not nobility, but citizen, maybe bourgeoisie. France close to the financial ruin and so much spending for one plate! Is this common in pre-revolutionary France?

And the last question: The plate is worn, with a lot of scratches. The pre-owner must have used it to cut cake with a sharp knife. Can I polish this piece VERY carefully, or shall I leave it alone? How much restoration do you recommend? I am ready to respect the age, but would like to do some polish.
Thank you for helping me further

Jörg

And, I still do not manage to embed the pictures, so link again...

The marks
http://i1102.photobucket.com/albums/g46 ... 0321-1.jpg
Decharge mark
http://i1102.photobucket.com/albums/g46 ... 030315.jpg
Crest and engraving
http://i1102.photobucket.com/albums/g46 ... 030316.jpg
http://i1102.photobucket.com/albums/g46 ... 030318.jpg
Fault on the backside of the rim
http://i1102.photobucket.com/albums/g46 ... 030319.jpg
Whole plate, front
http://i1102.photobucket.com/albums/g46 ... 030314.jpg
Whole plate, back
http://i1102.photobucket.com/albums/g46 ... 030317.jpg

[Joerg]

The marks

Decharge mark

Fault on the backside of the rim

[Joerg]

The Family crest


The plate, front side


The plate, back side


The fault on the rim

[Francais]

As to the size and weight, it is not particularly heavy for the size. In my opinion it is not a plate (meaning dinner plate) but a platter, for serving. Plates are usually around 24 cm (give or take) and weigh about 22 troy oz. or 684 gm.
The maker's mark is too small for me to see well, but I am reasonably certain it is Pierre-Jacques LAMINE.
The 1787 date seems correct, at least from the shape of the cartouche, the only other possibility would have been 1784 which is ruled out as Lamine didn't register his mark until 1785.
Le Tom is a French name, or more exactly a Breton name. I am no good on coat-of-arms, and French ones are often not legitimate. I will try to find out about this one. I believe some of my relations had this name.
I am not sure what the fault is without having it in hand, and really shouldn't comment as I don't see it well, but the underside of rims often had marks, or irregularities that silversmiths don't bother to take out, as they aren't seen.
I think the stories about financial problems in pre-revolutionary France are over played. The problems were those of the state, not necessarily those of the rich. Also the rarity of early French silver are played up a bit.
I don't see anything wrong with a LITTLE hand polishing, but taking out the scratches would be a mistake, the piece is supposed to be scratched. You should learn to like the wear.
Maurice

[Francais]

I should have asked you to describe the coat of arms, I really can't see it well, and what is the motto underneath.
I will wait to hear from you before making an attempt.

Maurice

[Joerg]

Dear Francis

thank you very much, this are very useful Information and I will follow your advice.
To your second reply, the coat of arms, here a link to a full size Picture:
http://abload.de/img/p1030316cxlhn.jpg
http://abload.de/image.php?img=p1030316cxlhn.jpg

I would describe to coat of arms in the following way:
The shield is blue (azure), horizontal lines. It features a crossbow in the Center. Below left and right are stars, above left and right balls.
The second word of the Motto is "SEMPER". The first features 5 letters, xxCTx. From the first two letters only the serif remains, but I would say it is an R and E, while the last letter Looks like an L, but I think it should be an I, so the first word reads "RECTI". So my Interpretation of the Motto is "RECTI SEMPER".

I hope this helps further. But anyway, again, thank you so much for the Information provided.

Jörg

[Francais]

Great picture! I thought of using this as a lesson on how to look up a coat of arms but I had no success, which quite honestly is the norm.
in any case, I could not find it in Rietstap, nor described on line. In my opinion most coat of arms on French silver are bogus, in the sense that the family didn't have the right to bare arms.
Of course what this forum needs is a heraldic expert. No one has found the ones I posted. I have tried to interest most of the ones I found on line in looking up ones for me, with no luck. You would think there would be a forum. There are a few professionals who will look them up for you, but most just charge to tell you about a coat of arms loosely related to your family name. Someone in my family a generation or two back decided that ours consisted of 5 fleur de lys. So now I joke that we have 5 while the Bourbons only have 3. I could tell a few tales about the "nobles" in the family, but that is probably for another time.
If I were you, I would be happy with a nice coat of arms, and leave it at that.

Maurice

[Joerg]

Dear Maurice

After your reply I posted the family crest in a specialized forum. (www.heraldik-wappen.de). The forum language is German. But they could not adress the family crest either.
So the thread stops here.

Thank you one more time for your valuable contribution.

Kind regards

Jörg

[Francais]

I am very pleased to find that sight, although my German is very poor. I am amazed I never ran across it before. I am going to send them the German and Swiss coats of arm that I posted here.
Thanks
Maurice