Large French Spoon

[joho]

Hi All - I tried on the forum a few years ago to get identification of maker and approximate date of this French spoon, but without success. Maybe time to try again! It is a large basting spoon, 333 mm long and weighing 186 grams. It is stamped 3 times with the makers mark, there are no other marks. The makers mark consists of a crown at the top, a fleur de lys or cross below the crown, and the letters I C or possibly I G at the bottom. There is an engraved armorial to the back of the handle. I guess it dates from mid 18th century. Would be grateful for any help. Many thanks John

[Francais]

I personally doubt anyone is going to identify this mark in my lifetime, and even if you are a lot younger in yours either. Although only a side by side comparison would tell for sure, I have been trying to identify it for decades, and have had a picture on my site for many years hoping someone else would recognize it. A pair of candlesticks, which do not belong to me although I offered a lot for them, have the same mark or at least a version of the same mark with two other marks ASV. in a conforming cartouche. The mark on your piece is, I presume, very large much larger than the normal French mark. In France in the 18th c. there were silversmiths, mostly in small communities, who (the English word escapes me for the moment) subscribed to system where they paid a fee and didn't have to have charge and discharge marks. Instead they just stamped their maker's mark three times. Even Helft didn't give them a lot of attention, and I know of no complete list. I will give my opinion of where it might have been made, but first could you post a picture of all three marks together, and the back of the bowl of the spoon? If I were to date it, I would say late 18th c. but it could of course be earlier, as styles didn't change much. Also I would say the coat of arms is bogus. Not in the sense of being added later, just that the owner didn't have a right to have arms, and made that up. Keeping in mind I am not expert in that area, it is just an opinion based on the opinion that it was a common practice in France. Now most important, any provenance, even the name of the family you purchased it from, or the area where you found it?, if you purchased it from a dealer, even a long time ago, please ask him if he can help out.

Maurice

[joho]

Hi Maurice - many thanks for your considered reply. Yes, I guess we may never know the answer, but it is really interesting to know that there are other identified pieces with the same or similar marks. The size of the marks are certainly larger than the usual 19th century French marks, and look of the typical size you would find for a maker's mark on 18th century silver. Having had another look at the engraved armorial I agree that it is quite likely bogus, as you say. It is rather crudely executed and I am sure a true aristocrat would have had a far more professional engraving done. Unfortunately I have no provenance for this spoon. I bought it at a small auction house 3 or 4 years ago, so I guess all connection with its previous owner is now lost!
I have attached a picture of the three marks and one of the back of the bowl . The drop at the back of the bowl is large and has a flattened rounded section leading to the stem and a Y sort of shape at the top of the drop. I mention this as it is not that clear in the picture.
Thanks again
John

[Francais]

That is a very odd drop, for a French spoon, no faceting or division. I will have to think about it. I presume the small auction house is in Britain? Any chance it was with anything of a Caribbean provenance? I wrote this before I heard from you about the size of the mark, as I remembered it the mark was exceptionally large. If you don’t mind could you send me the height of the mark in mm?

As I said I don’t own the pieces which I have seen with this mark. I have to watch a bit what I say about them, as they are in an institution, and at one time the curator didn’t want too much publicity about them, for reasons I can’t go into. In any case they are two pieces of hollowware that look to be around the last half of the 18th c. They were owned and engraved, probably later, by a Mississippi Valley family, either at the end of the 18th or beginning of the 19th c. I don’t think they are MV primarily because I know of no silversmiths in this area with the proper initials. I do think they are French colonial, for a number of reasons. First the mark you have is too large for that period of France, and the other marks, which are three letter combinations are certainly a silversmith’s makers mark. That makes one wonder about the IG mark. Two sets of maker’s marks are not common anywhere in the French world. So I have always presumed that the IG mark was some kind of local mark, or guarantee mark. The final and best reason is that the items are cast, (please no open speculation about what kind of objects are cast, as that is what I am avoiding to say). The other curious thing is that there are a number of holes drilled in the silver, and plugged with silver. When I first saw this, it absolutely threw me for a loop. I couldn’t figure out why there would be holes, which were randomly drilled, and then filled. With the help of a friend who had seen the same thing once, I came to the conclusion that they had bubble imperfections in the casting. Rather than give up, the silversmith drilled out the imperfection and plugged the hole with drawn wire. I am sure they were hardly noticeable when new, but as the solder aged, some fell out, and others became visible.
I presumed that no silversmith in France would be so poorly trained or choose such a “dishonest” solution. As a result I came to the conclusion that they were made in the colonies. There were a large number of refugees in American from the slave revolt in St. Domingue, and other French Islands, the timing would be right for someone to bring then to America. Unfortunately while I am doing research on the silversmiths and miniature painters of the French Islands, attributed examples of marks are extremely rare. I may know more in a few years, but I doubt it will ever be possible to nail down many maker’s marks. At one point I thought my IG mark could be Isle de Guadeloupe, but seeing it marked three times with no other mark, makes me wonder.

[joho]

Intriguing!! I had never considered the possibility of French Caribbean or other French Colonial. Could Canada been a possibility? The marks are not huge, being approximately 8.5mm high and 5.5mm across at the base. It may not be clear in the pictures, but there is some faceting to the drop at the back of the bowl.

Thanks and regards John

[Francais]

That is not so large, so I may be wrong. Perhaps yours is a French silversmith, I will have to think about it.
Canada is unlikely, I have had a large amount of Canadian silver, and have handled a lot more. My area of expertise is really the Creole corridor, stretching from Canada to New Orleans. The French islands are far more likely.
I am working on a checklist of silversmiths who worked on just one island during a period of just 25 years, and already have over 120 names on it. The wealth on the islands was huge, and silversmiths and other trades people catering to the rich were quite common there.
Maurice

[joho]

Many thanks Maurice - this is really interesting.
I have found reference to a Haitian French Colonial spoon, on an American auction site, unfortunately no picture of the marks - see picture and description below (apologies for quality of pic). However regarding size of the marks, I presume that on this Haitian spoon, being a table spoon, the marks would be much smaller than the marks on my spoon, or they would not fit on the stem! Does the principle relating to 'large marks' mean that the size of the marks is large in comparison to the size of the object? John



Description
An Antique French Colonial Silver Spoon, late 18th/early 19th c., triple struck marks, untraced; with egg-shaped bowl, fiddlethread handle and engraved crest of Henri I of Haiti, featuring a phoenix rising from the ashes, length 8 1/8 in., weight 2.60 troy ozs Note: Henri Christophe (1767-1820), a former slave and general in the Haitian Revolution, reigned as Henri I, King of Haiti, from 1811 to 1820. He is known for his ambitious construction projects, notably Sans Souci Palace, which was considered one of the most magnificent structures in the West Indies, and the mountaintop fortress, Citadelle Laferriere, both of which are UNESCO World Heritage Sites.

[Francais]

My theory is that the size of the marks is more dependent on the ability of the die cutter, which was often the silversmith himself when not in Metropole France. There is obviously some cases when two size marks are known to exist: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=33184
I know of several other examples, but generally the bigger marks seem to be colonial French. I know of two very odd exceptions, where French American silversmiths copied French guarantee marks.
I am sorry I missed that spoon, it would be nice to see the marks.

Maurice