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What is the meaning of the French Small Guarantee swan mark?

Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 12:02 pm
by been pickin
I recently acquired a watch inscribed France 1918 AE. I am quite sure it is some grade of silver. While the case components are marked with a 6 (or a 9) the only other mark is a very tiny (1/32") swan on the inside back. I found the guarantee mark on the French marks page but don't understand the meaning of this mark. Please pardon my denseness but is there someone that could explain it to me? Thanks

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ps I am quite pleased with myself for being able to capture the swan image. This was done with a Sony Mavica and a 15x eyepiece.
I would also like to thank those responsible for providing such a valuable resourse in this forum and this site in general.
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Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2005 5:31 pm
by Neruda
My understanding is that this is a mark for imported silver used on all watches and on other pieces of silver imported from countries which did not have a marking system equivilent to the French.
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Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2005 9:06 am
by frenchie_myriam
Hello, to complete the information provided with Neruda, I can tell you that the SWAN hallmark is specific to watch casings and this rule was valid from 1st of july 1893 till 1970. It proves it is imported silver fromm all origins. This hallmark is also used to assay during same period all kind of silver items for which the origin cannot be found. Hope this has helped.
Best Regards. Myriam
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Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 12:52 am
by been pickin
Thank you both for your help. With a name like Guarantee, I guess I was expecting a fineness designation but the information provided will help more accurately represent the item. The movement does remind me of an archaic Swiss example I once had. Thanks again, Jeff
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Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 3:50 pm
by fay
With regard to the swan in oval mark:
According to International Hallmarks of Silver -Tardy
The "Swan" mark has been used since 1st July, 1893 on watch cases of all origins and up to 1970. It was also struck on articles coming from non-contracting countries. In addition it is struck on silverware of the legal standard of fineness, but unknown origin, which is sold at public auctions. Assay charges are not refunded when an article bearing this mark is re-exported.
Hope this helps.
Fay
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Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 5:24 pm
by argentregime
Sorry for the late contribution on the French 'swan', but the position is far from 100% clear.

I handle literally hundreds of French silver cased watches every year many with the swan mark showing they were imported from (mainly) Switzerland or Germany. You can see it on many Swiss silver cased OMEGAs from tiem to time.

However, this mark is not just resticted to watch casings. I also have seen it on an American suger shaker imported into France and many other non-watch related silver items imported into France including an English Sterling silver cigarette case. You can also see it overstruck on items where the silver content is dubious.

To make matters even more confusing, I have seen many examples on watch casings and other 'silver' items, the Swan cartouche also contains a 'P'. I have seen several explanations of this including an assay town, 'PARIS' and more worryingly, that the 'P' in those cases stands for 'plaqué' i.e. plated. However I remain unclear.

In my experience many French buyers steer clear of 'silver' items stamped with cygne presumably because it is not precisely defined or used?

Hope useful.
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Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 4:20 am
by argentregime
..sorry, looking again at my posting it is slightly ambiguous............

For clarity, yes the Swan hallmark is defined in several learned works such as Tardy, but unlike almost all other French HMs I know of, one sees it regularly used in circumstances that are outside of that definition.

As mentioned in the example of the cigarette case, I have seen it used as a control mark on items which were already fully and legally hallmarked via a system equivalent to France's and where origin was clear. I have also seen it used on single items stamped once, sometimes twice, and even sometimes stamped no less than three times. I have yet to find an explanation of these multiple marks.

In summary, 'SWAN' is an odd one !
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Re: What is the meaning of the French Small Guarantee swan mark?

Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2023 3:22 am
by khan90
In a person's thinking, the French Small Guarantee Swan Mark might be perceived as a symbol of quality assurance for products. They may associate it with French standards for craftsmanship and excellence, expecting that items bearing this mark meet specific criteria, possibly related to authenticity, craftsmanship, or adherence to French regulatory standards.mp bhulekh

Re: What is the meaning of the French Small Guarantee swan mark?

Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2023 12:36 pm
by argentregime
Wow, this is an old thread!

Possibly but as I understand it, the mark was intended for use only on some types of imported silver where the origin/quality was not precisely identified. I have never seen it used on other materials simply as a general quality assurance mark.

The ambiguity arising from its use is primarily due to the definitions given by Tardy and other guides. Many people who regularly handle silver will have seen it used way outside of that particular definition. As I said back, 17 years ago, one can sometimes find it on pieces and wonder what on earth it is doing on them - particularly when struck several times on one surface.

We should also not assume it is an ancient and now defunct mark. In 2015 I purchased at auction in France some modern German silver flatware. This had standard perfectly correct modern German hallmarks for 925 silver yet the auctioneer insisted that this needed to be re-controlled and hallmarked with French marks. When the flatware was returned from the assay office, you guessed it, they had all been struck with "Poinçon Cygne".

Re: What is the meaning of the French Small Guarantee swan mark?

Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2024 4:47 pm
by bijoux.expert
There is certainly a lot of confusion about the swan hallmark! May I put the matter to rest with a full explanation? The Tardy book on hallmarks is hopelessly outdated and is no longer printed and indeed shouldn't be quoted.

221 & 222. Swan in profile to left in a horizontal oval frame. Introduced on July 1, 1893 to mark silver items coming from countries which had not concluded a reciprocal treaty with France (known as non-contracting countries) for similar items of French manufacture. (For silver works imported from contracting countries, weevil hallmarks numbers. 218 and 219 were stamped.) The swan hallmark also replaced the chimera hallmark for imported silver watches from all countries. The title obligation having been made applicable to all works by the customs law of January 11, 1892, the importation of works of titles inferior to French ones was prohibited and the use of the ET hallmark for imports was then interrupted. Since April 26, 1902, the swan has also been a so-called hazard hallmark, inscribed on any silver object of at least 800/1000 title without a legible French hallmark, brought to the assay office by second-hand jewellers, the Credit Municipal pawnbrokers or by auctioneers. The assay office mark is behind the head, no mark for Paris. Paris and departments, small module from June 1, 1893 to this day. A larger module, created by the decree 61-1485 of December 29, 1961, was introduced on January 1, 1962 to mark larger works.
Note: From the date of creation of the owl and swan hallmarks, all import hallmarks attest to the French legal titles.

Important
The assay office does not distinguish between a new or used work, but rather between a work bearing or not a diamond or oval responsibility mark. Indeed, the presence of the responsibility mark will give a specific origin to the work, and it will be able to receive, if its weight is greater than the mark threshold, a current restricted warranty mark of an eagle, Minerva or dog, even if it is second-hand. It should also be noted that a new work, if it does not bear a diamond or oval responsibility mark, will be considered of undetermined origin, and as a result, it will receive an owl, swan hazard mark or a mask, whatever its weight. (In the case, for example, of a jeweller who has lost or damaged his maker's mark, or a new work put up for sale without a responsibility mark). The assay service has no obligation to control a work below the mark threshold, whether new or used, if it bears a responsibility mark, however, it can do so out of courtesy towards its clients.

I can also add that the P mark within the swan hallmark refers to the Pontarlier assay office. This office, together with the Bellegarde assay office (letter V) were opened in 1865 at the request of Swiss watchmakers to comply with the free trade treaty signed between France and Switzerland the 30th June 1864. Swan hallmarks with assay office marks P and V are thus commonly found on Swiss watches.

Re: What is the meaning of the French Small Guarantee swan mark?

Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2024 12:41 pm
by oel
Today there is little confusion about the French Swan.
International Hallmarks on Silver collected by Tardy is certainly not outdated and a must have for people who are interested in silver hallmarks. Great for finding out which country uses or has used a particular mark(s)and for a quick cursory search. I am using the 5th edition English language (2005 reprint) and I take the liberty to quote from Tardy's.
On page 208 France (1893-imports) it shows the swan mark, and states it has been used since 1st July 1893 on watch cases of all origins and up to 1970 it was also struck on articles coming from non/contracting countries. In addition it is struck on silverware of the legal standard of fineness, but of unknown origin, which is sold at public auctions. This great little book also states at page 201 France (1838-symbols) Symbols of the French Assay Offices; P for Pontalier and V for Bellegarde.
Moreover the swan mark has been discussed here too and with source references;
https://www.925-1000.com/forum/viewtopi ... rk#p202782
In my opinion if you like to put the matter to rest with a full explanation, you should mention all the sources you used/examined or quote from.
The source reference serves a number of purposes:
This gives authors of sources recognition for their work.
You give the reader of your thesis the opportunity to look up the source.
You prevent plagiarism.
https://www.pcc.edu/library/research/re ... re%20using.


Source; International Hallmarks on Silver collected by Tardy, page 201,208
World Hallmarks Volume I, hallmarks of Europe 19th to 21st Centuries William B. Whetstone, Danusia V. Niklewicz, Lindy L. Matula 2nd Edition, page 108, 110, 111 France.



Peter.

Re: What is the meaning of the French Small Guarantee swan mark?

Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2024 6:37 pm
by bijoux.expert
The only reason I didn't quote my source is that it was my own, recently published reference on French hallmarks, and I had no wish to be accused of promoting its sale to all the users of the site. A moderator of this site recently accused me of being haughty.
The Tardy states that the swan is struck on silverware of unknown origin sold at public auctions. All the references copy off each other, and all omit to mention that the swan is also struck on any silver items (and not just silverware) brought to the assay offices by second-hand dealers and the government pawnbrokers. And they all omit to mention that the swan only started being used on second-and items after 1902, not 1893. The Tardy does indeed show the P and V assay office symbols but omits more than a dozen others after 1838 and all those from 1798 to 1819. And numerous assay office symbols shown in the Tardy are just plain wrong.
I agree that the Tardy can be a useful guide to give a quick overview of world hallmarks, but it just can't be relied upon for the finer details; for France and for other countries, there are just too many errors and omissions. The Tardy doesn't show the opening and closing dates of all the French hallmark offices, and it neglects all the assay office marks used by France in the towns it occupied under Napoleon (there were 58).
It's never easy to accept that one's trusty companion of many years can no longer be trusted, but the Tardy has had its time !
Have a great day.

Source : Les Poinçons Français des Métaux Précieux de 1789 à ce Jour.

Re: What is the meaning of the French Small Guarantee swan mark?

Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2024 7:57 pm
by oel
I think this moderator was somewhat right.

Like you said Tardy can be a useful guide to give a quick overview of world hallmarks, and it is published in English and French. For proper research and specific information, if possible we should consult specialized literature. If not available, this forum is a solution.
We may assume, that in the book you wrote you have acknowledged the used sources.
You to have a great day.

Peter

Re: What is the meaning of the French Small Guarantee swan mark?

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2024 3:15 am
by bijoux.expert
Yes, the book has a five-page bibliography and all sources used are referenced with footnote numbers in the texts. The Tardy is mentioned in the text several times, usually in a case where a fact mentioned in the Tardy has not been able to be independently verified elsewhere. The Tardy is in fact a good deal more accurate than the Markezana, however the illustrations in the Tardy are rather small.

Re: What is the meaning of the French Small Guarantee swan mark?

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2024 4:07 am
by oel
All clear, thanks. It should be great if also an English version of your book was available.

Best regards,

Peter.

Re: What is the meaning of the French Small Guarantee swan mark?

Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2024 2:49 am
by bijoux.expert
I agree an English version would be nice. There is however a full translation of each page supplied on a PDF file. I'm waiting for feedback on the PDF file, as there are some translations of French technical terms that need confirmation and correction. It's a lot of work to redo the whole book in English, and the research for this book delayed the work on volume II of the other jewellery book for two years. People are getting impatient, and I really need to get back to work on it.
Sales of hallmark references are not what they used to be, that's why none of the historic references is in print at the moment. I doubt the sales of an English volume would cover the costs, let alone the time. I guess many people think they can find out what they need on the internet, failing to realise that the internet gives very cursory and often erroneous or contradictory information.

Re: What is the meaning of the French Small Guarantee swan mark?

Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2024 8:25 am
by oel
Yes, that is certainly true. But I notice that second-hand reference works regarding silversmith marks and hallmarks are still "expensive" or not available. I know because I just bought 2nd hand; Walter van Dievoet, Répertoire général des orfèvres et des marques d'orfèvrerie en Belgique III 1942-1997. Added value, the accompanying text in this book is in Dutch, French, German and English.
One option is E-books that you can download after payment. You have experience with it and know the market better than I do. I wish you a lot of succes.

Peter.

Re: What is the meaning of the French Small Guarantee swan mark?

Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2024 1:24 pm
by bijoux.expert
You are right that even the second-hand books are expensive, people ask €500 for used copies of the Markezana book! I have no idea how accurate this book is for 18th century hallmarks, but for 19th century hallmarks, there's not a page of my copy that hasn't got corrections on it !
Because the old books are quite expensive, I took the liberty of making mine not too cheap. It will never reimburse me for all the work that went into it, but there was no reason to give it away !
I have received a lot of orders for the book from collectors, but professionals are surprisingly difficult to convince they need a new book. They are attached to their books and none of them actually realise how many errors there are in these books. They just believe what they read, as they don't know any better, and never check, and I see incorrect information given by the "experts" in auction catalogues all the time.
Van Divoet is a very good book, good idea to buy it. He is one of the very few authors who really did a lot of research, he went all through the French laws to find anything to do with hallmarking and found the opening dates of many assay offices. I confirmed much of is research at the French archives myself. I read Nederlands, so Van Dievoet is no problem for me.