Another strange question

PHOTOS REQUIRED - marks + item
amena
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Another strange question

Postby amena » Mon Jan 24, 2022 10:07 am

Hello everyone
also this time I have a strange question.
This lamp
Image
has this hallmarking.
Image
Something is wrong since the mark in the lozenge does not correspond to any silversmith listed in the books on Roman silver, which are quite exhaustive for the silversmiths of the nineteenth century. Furthermore, the edict of Cardinal Pacca prescribes that the silversmith's mark must be composed of his initials and a number that identifies the shop, not a symbol.
However, I noticed that the mark of the keys under the tiara is struck on a pre-existing mark, of which you can see the outlines marked by the red arrows.
Is it possible that the mark in the lozenge is that of a French silversmith?
Does anyone recognize him?
Thanks for attention
Amena

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Re: Another strange question

Postby Aguest » Thu Jan 27, 2022 4:12 am

::: The link in the chain nearest the top, does that link have hallmarks, the link nearest the top and the furthest to the right in the picture? :::

::: Do you see what I see in real life or is that image an artifact of the camera's pixellation process? ::::

amena
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Re: Another strange question

Postby amena » Fri Jan 28, 2022 8:47 am

Hello Aguest
thanks for replying
I think I don't understand your question.
what do you mean with
Do you see what I see in real life or is that image an artifact of the camera's pixellation process?
I must specify that I do not own the lamp, they are photos that I took from the internet. Probably all the links are hallmarked, but the photo of the hallmark I posted is the only one on the internet. I just brought the two stamps closer together to reduce the size.
In the meantime, since no one recognized a French silversmith in the lozenge mark, I have made a few other assumptions.
The date engraved on the lamp is 1815, but the item may have been made a few years earlier. On January 1, 1811, in Rome, the French marking system came into force and in that year and part of 1812 the silversmith's mark consisted of his initials separated by a symbol within lozenge. It is therefore probable that that mark belongs to a Roman silversmith who used it only in 1811 or 1812, and we do not have much information about the marks used in that period.
The mark with the keys under the tiara may have been struck in 1815 over the preexisting French hallmark.
This procedure, however, would not be regular, as there were specific rules and specific marks for the silvers already hallmarked.
But there are always exceptions

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Re: Another strange question

Postby Aguest » Sat Jan 29, 2022 12:56 am

::: I wasn't sure if I was seeing hallmarks on those links or not, that was the point, and if those are hallmarks then I was interested in what they were. :::
::: Since we may never know what hallmarks are stamped on the links, we won't discuss them as we lack a clear picture of them. :::

::: Let's discuss the "tiara with crossed keys" hallmark. Is that hallmark the "medium articles" hallmark and is there a letter between the two keys? I think I see the letter "B" for Bologna, but I am not sure. But let's do a thought experiment and assume that we do see a letter "B" or one of the other towns that was reorganized during the "second ricupera" (edict July 25th, 1817). So some towns (and possibly some Papal States too) had this 2-year period from 1815-1817 in which they knew that the French Domination had ended in 1815 but they were not formally reorganized until 1817. :::

::::: So if this object was made in one of those towns like Bologna, then silversmith created an inscription for 1815 but hallmarked the object with whatever hallmarks he so desired, hallmarks only used for 1815-1817 so they probably would not show up in a book on the subject. Then one of the hallmarks was overstamped in accordance with the formal reorganization of 1817 with the "medium articles" hallmark. ::::

::::: You would expect to see additional hallmarks in all other cases (pre-1815 Italy, pre-1815 France, pre-1815 Malta, etc.) so unless I'm misinterpreting the history of the edict of 1815 and its application, then the best guess is that the hallmarks are just whatever the silversmith wanted to use in the years 1815 to 1817 during this period in-between the two systems. Another interesting detail is that a "5-lobed-flower" appears very prominently in the details of the inscription while simultaneously appearing within the hallmark between the "G" and the "V." Did the silversmith design his unique hallmark to match the details on the inscription? I see how some might think the two appearances of the "5-lobed-flower" just a coincidence, but it seems as if the silversmith intentionally designed the hallmark to match the big "5-lobed-flower" on the inscription. ::::

:::: If that hallmark is actually a "Papal States" hallmark and not a general "medium articles" hallmark, then please let me know. As far as I can tell, I think there is a letter between the crossed-keys which designates a town. ::::

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Re: Another strange question

Postby Aguest » Sat Jan 29, 2022 1:01 am

To quote Blakstone who was looking at a different object:

"Just to clear up a few things, this particular "papal tiara & keys" mark was created 7 Jan 1815 by edict of Cardinal Bartolomo Pacca, who abolished the Napoleonic French silver standards and returned Rome to the “carlino” standard of 10 oz. 16d. (.889), with a "high" standard of 11 oz. 9 d. (.948), indicated by a "wolf" mark. The Roman law was extended to the rest of the Papal States on 25 July 1817, and the marks remained in force until 1870, when Rome was assumed into the Kingdom of Italy."

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Re: Another strange question

Postby amena » Sat Jan 29, 2022 4:19 am

This hallmarking is certainly anomalous and it is difficult to find a convincing explanation.
Let's start with the tiara hallmark with the crossed keys.
Is there a letter under the keys? I don't seem to see it, you do. Unfortunately the only photo we have is that.
However, it seems to me that I can certainly exclude Bologna and probably the other cities of " seconda recupera" as well.
I have to check carefully to be sure. The French hallmarking system has never been in force in Bologna, Ferrara, Modena, Ancona and in almost all the Marches. Between 1812 and 1817, the system of the Italian Kingdom, commonly known as Lombard-Venetian, was in force, although probably not strictly respected in the last two years. The silversmiths' marks were prescribed round in shape and not lozenge-shaped.
Then there is certainly a problem with fineness, since the tiara with keys denotes the standard of carlino, which is between the two standards of the French system.
But as I said above, this hallmarking is definitely anomalous and it is difficult to find a convincing explanation.


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